In my previous post, I discussed a Global Climate Change Blog Kerfuffle over the IPCC’s equation describing the radiative balance. The Kerfuffle involves one of the conclusions Dr. Roger Pielke Sr. reported in a recent peer reviewed article and two blog posts. .
Dr. Pielke’s fuller point is rather arcane and relates to the ability of scientists to accurately estimate the magnitude of the climate sensitivity, λ, based on Global Mean Surface Temperature anomalies, T’, as measured and reported using a very specific equation in an IPCC document. Dr. Pielke Sr. made several points regarding the uncertainties associated with determining the λ, all related to issues associated with the anomaly, T’.
The following paragraph in particular bothered Eli Rabett
“Indeed, it is easy to show that weighting by (T+T’)**4 significantly emphasizes the lower latitudes, since the relationship is to the 4th power of temperature. I look forward to your analysis as we have recommended.â€
Eli’s response was:
[This] is just wrong, as anyone who learned about series expansions of functions in Cal I would know.
Turns out Eli is wrong; Dr. Roger Pielke Sr. is exactly right.
The correctness of Dr. Roger Sr.’s claim can be shown either using series expansions of functions or the simpler arithmetical method Dr. Roger Sr. used. Both give the same results for the magnitude of the effect Dr. Roger Sr.’s describes. (as they should.)
Now, it is my opinion, that when possible, it is much wiser to rely on simple arithmetic to illustrate the importance of a phenomena: One is less likely to go horribly wrong. However, as Eli claims to have dis-proven Dr. Roger Sr.’s arithmetic through use of more complicated series expansions of non-linear functions, I think it’s necessary to illustrate how to do this correctly. The terms describing the phenomenon Dr. Roger Sr. will be shown to be leading order effects.
For those who don’t want to read the math, the main result, in term of phenomenology follow. With regard to the question “Do neglecting spatial variations in surface temperature introduce uncertainty when estimating climate sensitivity using the IPCC equation in question?”
- Spatial variations in temperature do matter. If I’m not mistaken in my math, we could fix up up the IPCC equation to include their effect, resulting in:
(1) dH/dt = f -( T’/λ + (3/λ) <δToδT’> /<To> )where H is the heat content of the land-ocean-atmosphere system, f is the radiative forcing (i.e. the radiative imbalance), λ is called the “climate feedback†parameter, <To> is the absolute value of the global means surface temperature in the reference case, δTo is the difference between a local surface temperature and the GMST in the reference case (denoted with ‘o’ subscripts) , and δT’ is the difference between the local surface temperature and the GMST at the current time (t).
The final term on the right hand side of (1), shown in bold, describes the effect of variations in the spatial distribution of temperature that exist, and may change as the planet warms (or cools.) Mathematically, the term is leading order in temperature differences, noted with primes ‘.
- A back of the envelope estimate also indicates the magnitude of the effect of spatial variation is sufficiently large to retain in (1). Using current measured values of the anomlaie T’ and the spatial variations in temperature suggest the new term is roughly 15%-25% the size of the original linear term. Neglecting this physical effect could account for a roughly 1/3 to 1/2 the uncertainty in the estimate for the climate sensitivity to doubled CO2 in the IPCC estimate of climate range. (Note to those who read yesterday’s post: This uncertainty is identical to that obtained using Atmos’s estimate of the error in T’)
- If someone wishes to obtain an empirical estimate of λ2xCO2 with uncertainties less than ±0.7K, it is important to account for the effect of spatial surface temperature variations in some way. Since the current uncertainty range is thought to be ±1.5K, this means any sensible researcher should consider these variations.
The main results, with regard to the blog kerfuffle, are:
- Roger Sr.’s arithmetic was correct.
- Eli’s series expansion was inadequate.
The Boring Proof.
The blog kerfuffle is related to this IPCC equation, which is supposed to be an approximation for the energy balance of the earth, expressed in terms of the “Global Mean Surface Temperature Anomalie”, T’, which I will define more precisely later. The equation in question is:
where H is the heat content of the land-ocean-atmosphere system, f is the radiative forcing (i.e. the radiative imbalance), and λ is called the “climate feedback†parameter.
The “Series Expansion Kerfuffle” relates only to one term, which I will call Qrad. It’s supposed to describe the excess radiation losses from the earth that occur as its surface temperature responds to forcing due to greenhouse gases (or anything for that matter.) In (2) this term is approximated as: Qrad ~ T’/λ.
That approximation for Qrad accounts for extra heat lost by radiation when the average surface temperature of the planet warms. In so far as it describes that effect, the term is linearized. As far as I can tell, no one is worried about that linearization.
So, what’s the problem? Roger Sr. is concerned that we can’t use historical records for T’ to estimate λ for a number of reasons. The one important to this kerfuffle is this: Equation (2) is missing terms that arise as a result of the spatial variations in the earth’s surface, and Dr. Roger Pielke Sr. believes these terms matter.
Fuller Representation of Radiative Losses
How does Dr. Roger Pielke Sr. describe the issue?
As an example, assume a region of the Earth with a base temperature of 270K and another region with a base temperature of 300K. The difference in the outgoing long wave radiation (assuming blackbody behavior where the emission is proportional to T**4) results in a 34% greater emission from the warmer location. Adding a temperature increase of 1K to each location results in a 38% greater change when this increase is applied to the warmer temperature (i.e. comparing the difference between the incremental change in outgoing long wave radiation at the cold and warm locations).
Dr. Roger Sr. is i correct. Full expression for the radiative flux should include a T4 dependence where T is an absolute temperature, not the temperature anomaly and it should also account for the spatial variations.
So, lets’ fix up equation (2) to account for both features.
Since temperature varies over the surface of the earth, a more detailed representation of the total radiative heat losses should be replaced by a surface integral of the form;
where σ is the Stefan-Boltzmann constant, ε and T are respectively the spatially varying emissivity and integration is performed over the surface area of the earth, A.
However, equation (2) was obtained by taking a difference with a reference case which means that f is a forcing relative to some absolute value of forcing, Fo tht causes the temperature on the surface of the earth to achieve some reference value To. So, any instantaneous local anomaly T’ is defined relative to this temperature. That is T’= T-To.
Recognizing this, the more finicky blogger might wish to replace the simple linear T’/λ term with the more complicated integral:
where A is surface area.
This results in an equation sufficiently horrifying to repel the average blog reader. Luckily, we aren’t interested in the full equation, but only the portion that describes what might be called the “radiative anomaly”, Qrad, which I’ll define as:
Here, the angle brackets are used <Y> to indicate the surface area average of any quantity “Y” that may vary over the earth’s surface; which can be written more formally as <Y> =A -1∫∫ Y dA
We now have an equation that not only accounts for the full T4 dependence for radiation but also permits us to consider the effect of spatial variations in surface temperature.
However, everyone would prefer an simpler, approximate equation, that does not contain a surface integral. We seek something more like (2) but we also wish to do the analysis in sufficient detail to see if the extra terms in (1) appear.
Expand local temperature, T, into an average (GMST) and spatially varying portions.
Let’s begin by defining the temperature anomaly in (1) T’ in (1) in terms of global mean surface temperature. Recall that T’ in (1) & (2) itself is a global average anomaly; it happens to be the quantity
where the angle brackets describe surfae area averaging as above and To describes the temperature that existed at a point of the surface of the earth under reference conditions.
We know the poles and equator differ in temperature (even under reference conditions). To explore the effect described by Dr. Roger Sr., we’ll define a local temperature deviation, δT, as the difference between the instantaneous local absolute temperature at any point T, and the instantaneous global average temperature <T> as δT = T – <T>. Applying the definition to the reference case, we get δT0 = T0 – <T0>)
Let us further define a dimensionless temperature distribution function function Θ = δT / ΔTo where ΔTo is the standard deviation in the earth’s surface temperature in the reference case. This definition is convenient because Θ is sort of a “shape” function, it’s magnitude is order 1. Later on, we’ll also be able to magnitude of terms containing the powers in ΔTo relative to those containing <To> noting that ΔTo is much smaller than <To> .
At any time, the Global Mean Surface Temperature is defined as:
But since the definition of any surface average temperature <T> requires <T>= A-1∫ ∫ <T> dA we know that:
Equation (7) result is unremarkable, but it gets used later, so I’m numbering it should anyone later have questions.
Insert expansion into the integral (4)
Our next step is to insert the expansion into the integral describing the anomaly in radiative forcings (4), retain only just enough of the leading order terms to ultimately capture the leading order effect desired for (2) and simplify.
Using the definition of Θ (the dimensionless local instantaneous temperature deviation), we can either use the binomial theorem or MacLaurin Series to further expand Qrad. At this point in the analysis, we’ll immediately neglect terms that are in higher order than ΔTo2, or contain temperature difference to similar order as small compared to contributions that scale as the the reference temperature, <To>3. We will also assume variations in emissivity are unimportant to this particular calculations. The result is:
ε σ < (<T>4 + 4 <T>3ΔToΘ +6<T>2(ΘΔTo)2..) – (<To>4 + 4<To>3 ΔToΘo +6<T>o2(ΘoΔTo)2 +..) >
Next recall that, for any Y, taking the average of the average returns the average, so <<Y>> = <Y>, and <Y – (Y- <Y>)> = 0. With a small amount of manipulation, the leading order terms for Qrad are found:
~ 1/ λo {T’ + ( ΔTo/<To> )2 [3T’ <Θo2> + 1.5 <To>( 2 <ΘΘ’> ) ]}
where the constant is defined as λo = <To>3 / (4 ε σ )
Now for the final equation!
Equation (9) contains the leading order and first correction terms in “T’/T” required to determine whether the IPCC approximation can be applied to estimate the radiative heat loss. It’s useful substitute dimensional variables (δT), rather than Θ:
Or if we prefer this to resemble the IPCC equation, we can define λ= λo/ ( 1 + 3 <δTo2>/<To>2) and write
Given the range of temperatures on earth, it turns out we can simplify this equation further, and for all practical purposes, the appropriate approximation is:
Leading order terms describing the effect of spatial variations on the radiant heat loss from the earth’s surface are highlighted in bold. These terms describe the effect Dr. Roger Sr. was discussing, and which are missing from the IPCC equation (2).
The new terms appear when one
- Writes down the functional form for radiation losses from the earth’s surface, (this is the horrible integral) including the effect of spatial variations
- Expands temperature into mean and deviations in a series and
- Simplifies to leading order in temperature anomalies.
The terms describing the effect of spatial variations did not appear in Eli’s expansion because he skipped the first step: He did not write down the integral equation. Instead, he wrote down the functional form for radiation losses for an isothermal body, with no spatial variations in temperature. He did include the T4 dependence, expanded that already simplified equation, and then wrote done the leading order term.
So, how much do spatial variations matter?
Whether or not these spatial variations “matter”, depends, of course, on what phenomena one is investigating.
In Dr. Roger Sr.’s case, he was trying to use GMST data to estimate climate sensitivity to doubling of CO2, λ2xCO2. Current estimates suggest λ2xCO2 falls between 1.5K and 4.5K. The relevant question then, is, “Relative to a range of 3K, how much difference does neglecting spatial variations make?”
To truly answer that question precisely requires downloading data from a whole bunch of GCM’s and or obtaining possibly non-existent data describing the earth’s surface temperature and calculating things like the standard deviation in the earth’s instantaneous surface temperature, <δTo2> or more detailed things.
I’m not going to do that on a blog. (I’ll probably never do it. But if someone else would like to, I’d find the results interesting.)
Still it is worth doing a back of the envelope estimate using accessible data; my goal is to determine if the terms contribute less than 1%, 10%, 100% or so on. So, let’s do that.
Suppose:
- The baseline temperature for the earth’s surface <To>~ 280K (60
- the global temperature anomaly is T’ ~ + 0.6K which is approximately equal to the current anomaly.
To estimate the value of <δToδT’>, let’s first assume that, we can divide the earth’s surface into three regions: 1/3 of the area (that near the poles)is ‘cold’ , with a base temperature deviation of δTo=-20K , 1/3 (near the equator) is ‘hot’ with a baseline deviation of δTo=+20 K and 1/3 is average δTo=0 K
(Note: This temperature distribution returns a standard deviation of 16K, which appears roughly consistent, compared to the temperature ranges of 90K in the adjacent figure showing annual average temperature from Nasa GSFC. Estimates of the temperature variations, δT, based on annual averaged values will tend to underestimate the instantaneous variation in temperatures about the instantaneous global mean, which is what is actually required to evaluate δTo. Using a low value will tend to underestimate the magnitude of effect of the variance in actual temperatures. So, we will be obtaining a lower bound. Those wishing to estimate an upper bound might use δTo=±30K as might be more appropriate for instantaneous variations.)
Assume the temperature in the “cold” part of the earth 1K compared to the ‘average’ anomaly and that at the equator dropped 1K compared to average anomaly. This is somewhat consistent with this map of the Surface Temperature Anomaly for 2005. (Source: NASA, )
This results in <δToδT’> = ( 20K (-1K)+ 0K (-0)K + (-20K)(+1K) )/3 = -20K2(2/3).
Now, comparing the relative magnitude of the neglected terms in 10b, we find the error associated with neglecting this phemonmenon is of the order:
If we use a spatial variation for temperatures of 30K, as might be a more typical value on an individual day, we estimate the error due to neglecting the spatial terms is roughly 25% compared to the term actually retained in the IPCC equation.
Of course, this is only a back of the envelop estimate of the importance of the term. But generally speaking, errors of 15%-25% arising from missing terms in an equation are thought to be important. These sorts of uncertainties tend to introduce bias, and cannot be eliminated by taking lots of data. The only fix is to correct the functional relationship to include the physical phenomenon that has been neglected.
But does an error of 15%-25% matter in the case Dr. Roger Sr. was considering?
The error of 15%-25% is quite important if one is to use the IPCC equation (1) to estimate the climate sensitivity, λ. Typically, those doing this computation try to obtain climate data at near steady state. In this case, neglecting the additional terms, the error will propagate into the computation of climate sensitivity, λ.
The range for the λ2xCO2 is thought to fall in the range of 1.5K to 4.5K. So, the current uncertainty range is ±1.5K. In contrast, if we were to use the IPCC equation, and empirical data for T’ to estimate the λ2xCO2, our uncertainty due to neglecting this physical process alone could be as large as ±0.75 K: That’s 1/2 the current uncertainty interval. Worse, measurement uncertainty, or other errors would widen the uncertainty interval in any estimate.
Clearly, if we wish to reduce the current uncertainty in λ2xCO2, below the current value of ±1.5K, a careful scientist or engineer one would wish to account for the existence of spatial temperature gradients, particularly the large ones between the poles and the equator!
Dr. Roger Pielke Sr. was right; and proved himself so using simple arithmetic. It’s a bit sad to see series expansions dragged into the whole mess. Naturally, when done correctly, the results of series expansions agree with arithmetic.
Advice to bunnies young and old: When a result can be proven with simple arithmetic, don’t expect series expansions to make the result go away.
—-
Update: 2/15/2007: I found a better image for anomalies.
Ha.. I will say this over here, but I think you and Judith Curry are winning and all my quatloos
were on the math guy!!! ouch. Have you shared Lumpy with Annan? He runs a rather quiet blog and seems
a reasonable fellow. When Schwartz did his thing I recall that RC relied on Annan to dissect.
I haven’t shared. “Lumpy” will not be shared until I’ve done consistency check to see if she holds up! Besides… you do realize agreeing with Pielke Sr. means “Lumpy” has a flaw. (Not that I can’t attribute that all to ‘noise’? )
Yes, I should as Annan questions. I’ve asked Roger Sr. and Gavin questions, and both have been very nice. So, likey Annan would too. I do need to know some things about statistics, and that’s not my area.
This latest error by by Mr Rabett, builds on an error in arguments dating back to something Mr. Rabett posted near 23-01-06 in:
http://climatesci.colorado.edu/2006/01/23/why-there-is-a-warm-bias-in-the-existing-analyses-of-the-global-average-surface-temperature/
Somehow that old thread (with comments) is being redirected to the latest (no comment) instantiation by Dr. Pielke Sr. … hope that Jan’06 thread can be found?
Dr. Pielke changed his web address. The current link is:
http://climatesci.org/2006/01/23/why-there-is-a-warm-bias-in-the-exis
He should probably have an assistant at colorodo.edu fix add code to their .htaccess file to autoforward his blog in a better way.
Lucia, if you are after statistics help, you might care to contact William M. Briggs at http://wmbriggs.com/blog/
He has commented a few times on CA and has an offer on his blog to help. “All manner of statistical analyses cheerfully undertaken.” is the headline.
Tony Edwards–
Thanks. I think I will. There are a few things I do want statistics help on. And it would be more efficient to have a statistician do them.
Gee, who’d a thought it. The experienced climate scientist turned out to be right, and the anonymous blogger who gets his information from wikipedia, doesn’t do math, and is mainly concerned with the whereabouts of Epsom was wrong. What’s funny is that the dumb Rabett has inserted a correction but is still wrong (he’s lost a minus sign).
Do you mean Eli inserted another correction recently? On the original post showing his derivation? Or are you referring to the algebra mistake one of his blog commenters found and corrected a while back?
Those who are appologists or overreacting (the sky is falling!) have a certain MO, don’t they? It’s been my experience that the average person doesn’t even know what’s warming or how or why; they’ve drunk the coolaid and taken away what they were meant to; “Carbon dioxide is making the planet dangerously overheat.” They don’t know the details; hardly surprising, the specifics are unimportant when you’re trying to spread FUD; and the rubes and patsys are to be tricked and put into a panic about things at any cost. They might wise up if they knew the truth. We don’t know anything, it’s all guesses!
If it wasn’t so obvious and sad, it would almost be funny.
Lucia, I was referring to Rabett’s so-called “UPDATE”, where he writes:
“UPDATE 2/6/08: As pointed out in the comments Eli screwed this up
[T^4 – (T+T’)^4] = T^4-T^4*(1 + 4 T’/T) = T^4* 4 T’/T = 4T’*T^3
good thing no one reads this blog. The change in emission depends on T^3
for a constant change T’. OTOH for the 250-350 K interval this is also
pretty well approximated by a linear function in T.”
In fact there are three errors in the above!
1. First = should be ~, approx =
2. After the second and third = there should be a minus sign (I’ll be generous and count these two errors as just one)
3. T^3 cannot be well approximated by a linear function in T, because the slope changes by almost a factor of 2 over that interval, as anyone who has done any calculus should know.
Why does anyone take this innumerate blogger seriously?
Ok… yes. So you do mean the first error which was of the high school algebra type.
I’ll admit I still make those myself from time to time. So far, I’ve caught my mistakes before my readers do, but that’s because my blog is boring and no one reads it! 🙂
hey now. your blog isn’t boring. I certainly like it. But then again, I’m a nerd. (I even wear black rimmed nerd glasses!)
Thanks for the math lesson, by the way!
Oh.. I wear little wire rimmed glasses. Black doesn’t suit my ghastly pale, untanned, complexion. 🙂
I found the explanation at http://halgeranon.blogspot.com/2008/02/much-ado-about-nothing.html much clearer.
Don,
It’s too bad algernon did such odd things. I’ll be commenting later– likely thursday. 🙂
I goofed big time!! I did not include the uncertainty estimate in my answer, which turns out to be on the order of 12.5% (or perhaps even bigger)! This changes my conclusion about the significance of the difference. The difference may indeed be significant. I can’s say for sure because the error bars on the temperature vs latitude graph from which I estimated the radiative emission as a function of temp across the globe are too big.
To settle the question, one needs to do the integral with actual temperatures from across the globe
Horatio,
I’m not sure which of your specific errors you are finding. I’m writing up what happens if one does the full problem.
The terms extra terms in equation (1) here turn out to work amazingly well. (I’m doing this with emissivity of 1 for the earth’s surface, as emissivity if dirt/trees/ ice is not the issue in this particular dispute.)
I’ll be explaining which of your errors I think was most important. However, I need to proofread my equations, as I like to be able to read them myself.
The terms extra terms in equation (1) here turn out to work amazingly well. (I’m doing this with emissivity of 1 for the earth’s surface, as emissivity if dirt/trees/ ice is not the issue in this particular dispute.)
I also assumed emissivity was the same across the surface (I ignored it in the anlysis). That is NOT what i am referring to above.
My primary mistake (as i see it, at least) was in not taking into account the error associated with the temperature as a function of latitude that i used to estimate the surface integral of radiative emission from.
The error is of order +- 12.5% (perhaps larger if one takes into account variation of temperature with latitude).
I now believe that a simple model really can’t decide the answer to this issue to better than 15% or so, which is the order of the difference you seem to be indicating above.
Your simplified estimate suffers from the same problems as mine: associated with not doing the full surface integral with actual temperatures. In fact, your estimates of temperature based on a few “bands” seems to be even cruder than the one I used.
Finally, the thing that puzzles me most about all this is this: I find it very hard to believe that someone has not actually done this analysis with the actual temperature data across the globe, since the GCM’s use such data to do their radiative emission calculations.
I said above: “The error is of order +- 12.5% (perhaps larger if one takes into account variation of temperature with latitude).
let me clarify: that’s the error in the integral of radiative emission across the surface associated with the particular 2-sigma error for “temperature as a function of latitude” that i used to estimate that surface integral.
Horatio:
I’ll be interested in seeing your post. I’ll be posting mine also. Maybe we can compare what we found.
I think, in contrast, your error came about due to taking short cuts with notation, forgetting which variables were already averaged and which were not. But to be honest, I had a bit of difficulty reading what you intended because you didn’t break down and insert real integrals etc. (Plus, your format won’t let me spread out the page. I wear bi-focals, and when I blow up the text, I see very less on the screen than you likely to.)
I totally agree that my temperature bands are cruder that yours! I used those because it’s the easiest way to do a back of the envelope calculation that way. Exact instantaneous data over the entire surface of the earth, are required to do this absolutely. I don’t plan to do that.
My really crude bands were chosen for an order of magnitude estimate; order of magnitude estimates are always necessarily crude. So, yes, my answer is different from yours. But in either case, this is large enough people should be aware of it.
FWIW: At the time I wrote this, my main goal was to show that
a) The terms do matter (as Roger Sr. says.
b) Roger Sr.’s simple algebraic estimate was more or less correct. (It is. He was comparing poles heat to equator heats, so his numbers are twice ours and
c)and to illustrate what went wrong in Eli’s series analysis. As you can see, Eli made an undergraduate level conceptual error. (It was particularly amazing in light of the fact that he went on to cast aspersions on Dr. Pielke Sr., Dr. Pielke Jr, making various snide remarks.)
I’m glad to see you are finding my mathematical terms are matching. I’m always worried I may have made mistakes (and make them often). So it’s nice to see you are getting the same result.
Horation:
I’m sort of surprised it isn’t previously quantified because it’s the sort of thing one wants to know when using the IPCC equation to estimate the magnitude of other things. Also, the equations I derived are a 1 page homework problem!
While it’s true that sometimes even those who know this effect might overlook errors of this magnitude in certain cases, it’s still useful to know they exists. I’m also a bit surprised by the venom in comments at ‘another blog’ at the whole idea this effect might even exist.
This uncertainty is similar in magnitude to others that exist. It’s an uncertainty. We should be aware of it.
Why does this unsettle some quite so much?
“FWIW: At the time I wrote this, my main goal was to show that
a) The terms do matter (as Roger Sr. says.”
Perhaps, but the real issue is “how much”?
If the uncertainty associated with a crude calculation (one like I did) is of the order of 15% or so (which I now believe mine is), then how can one say with any certainty one way or the other whether the difference between the integral of emission one gets using the actual temperatures across the globe vs the integral one gets get using the global average temperature is significant (at least to better than +- 15%)?
“b) Roger Sr.’s simple algebraic estimate was more or less correct. (It is. He was comparing poles heat to equator heats, so his numbers are twice ours”
I don’t debate that the difference in radiative emission from the pole to the equator is quite significant (I made that clear in my post). But, unless I completely off base here, the real issue is the integral across the globe.
Finally, when I said above that “what puzzles me most about all this is this: I find it very hard to believe that someone has not actually done this analysis with the actual temperature data across the globe, since the GCM’s use such data to do their radiative emission calculations.”, what I really meant is this:
It could be true, but i find it very unlikely, quite frankly, considering that someone could probably do the necessary comparison in a matter of seconds (since the GCMs apparently already do this kind of stuff and the global energy imbalance is based on detauiled temperature information across the globe)
For all i know, some scientist HAS (I would guess probably has) done this and if they have, it is very possible that they have already put the issue to rest — ie, concluded that it does not make a significant difference, at least not when it comes to making assessments about whether we should keep the change in global mean temp under 2K or some such value.
My final conclusion from all this is that I don’t think one can settle this particular issue based on simple approximations. 🙂
One final comment, then I won’t bore you any more.
Just so it is clear: My comment about the 12.5% error above was not the difference I found between the surface integral of emission performed with the two methods (using varying temperatures across the surface and using the global mean temp).
I actually found that the two integrals came out within about 4% of one another. That does not change.
But my conclusion that they actually are that close was faulty, since the two sigma error associated with the surface integral of emission for the temperature function I was using is at least 12.5% (probably greater, since my sinusoidal graph does not match up perfectly). So, the 4% difference I got might be wrong. But then again, it might not be. I can’t say for sure.
That simply cannot be answered with the analysis i used. All I can say is that if there is that the difference is probably within 20% or so (presuming my temperature vs latitude graph is accurate!) which is not particularly useful if one is trying to determine whether two quantities (in this case surface integrals) do not differ significantly (are within 10% of one another, say).
Again, so much for the simple analysis.
Perhaps i should add “never mind!” to the top of my post.
Horatio,
I need to read your next post explaining precisely what you think your error was to fully understand the points you are making with respect to your new findings. Otherwise, I’m afraid, well just get up in a huge amount of cross talk.
but with respect to this:
No one is trying to say the error is 15%. That’s not the purpose of this sort of analysis.
If you ask the issue is: Have we determined the precise magnitude of the effect from this analysis?
I think the answer is,
Well, then you, Dr. Pielke and I are likely in violent agreement. The purpose of this sort of analysis is not to put something to rest. It’s the opposite.
Heh! I’ve written posts like that. 🙂
there is a very large beast sitting in he Nasa maps of global temp. its the baseline that is used. And the idea of a “global” temp as a meaningful physical characteristic to be placed intoa model as a variable.
you can produce a map that looks different by using another baseline. If it was 1985 you could show the world was getting colder by comparing 1890-1950 to 1972-1985.
and you can change the maps you see in the pics by using yet another baseline and then asking what happens each season.
be straighforward. lets compare one 60 year period to another, one 60 years of low co2 to one of high and growing co2
try 1890-1950 and compare to 1950 to 2006.
the results are here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23668657@N07/
not only is there no “Global” warming within error, there isnt even any summer artic warming. “Warming” is in the artic in the winter a a little in the spring, and certainly a bit above 45 degrees latitude. It appears that global warming is really people using their furnaces to keep warm, and the number of people is growing.
And its very hard to understand radiative forcings and global temperature change models when they use a global temp and not the actual seasonally recorded spatially accurate temp.
C02 is not the same all over the earth either. it varies a lot. it varies a real lot by season and by hemispher.
how do you make a climate model with 2 “global” averaged “variables”?
you cant.