It should be obvious at this point, but tutoring is causing me to notice and reflect on things I observe happening in schools. As I’m thinking of these things and not blogging about much else, I thought I’d bring some of them up.
One of those things I’ve noticed around here: It seems that these days, high school physics teachers do not hand back graded test to students. Generally, students are allowed to see the test in class, sometimes only in a one-on-one meeting with the teacher who is going over the test with them. ( For what it’s worth, I find that sort of encounter horrifying. I had a professor in college who liked to do that, and I’ll I can say is that while I thought him well intentioned. I thought he was a good teacher. I thought he was a nice guy. But I vastly prefer to be allowed to go over the test myself along with a posted solution knowing that I may later return to ask questions of my choosing. I simply could not focus on anything the teacher was volunteering at the precise moment of picking up the test and learning my score. And that was how I felt when I’d done more-or-less ok on the test. I can’t imagine how I’d have felt if I blew the test! )
Anyway, if I recall, it was different when I was in high school: We got our tests back. They might be with held for a period while kids who missed the test had a chance to take the test, but they were not with held forever. We had our own test available to use as a study guide when preparing for our finals. I found this very helpful as it meant I had a record of precisely the type of thing I lost points on and could spend additional time on those. I also knew I could go ask someone for help on those problems. In these cases the fact they could see the exact wording of the question as well as where I went wrong was helpful, as generally, students who blew a test and only saw their test briefly tend to provide less than clear explanations of what the question asked, what they answered, and what their teacher said about their solution.
Publication of tests was even more routine in college. Tests themselves were generally posted promptly, along with solutions. In large lecture classes with pre-scheduled make up exam, the test solution was often posted within minutes after all exam sheets were collected.
Prior to tests, professors often made last year’s test available either at some place like Kinko’s. Sometimes department offices had tests from the last decade on file and available to students. Faculty were expected to write a fresh test. Even if some of the questions were similar, it didn’t matter in most STEM subjects. If a kid couldn’t figure out how to solve the time it takes a rock to drop {H} m from the top of a cliff to the ground given some value of {H} and possibly some local value of {g}, the fact they’d seen the exact same (or very similar) question on last years test didn’t make much difference. And if seeing the question on last years test motivated to figure out how to do the problem: That’s good thing! After all: faculty do assume students should bear a large responsibility for identifying their weaknesses and motivate themselves to learn. Providing those same students tools to assess their own performance and use that to guide study is generally considered a good thing.
Anyway, I googled a bit, and I did see another person remarking on this issue. A 2010 blog post at the Washington Post suggests possible motivations for the practice. I’ll let those interested click over and read the authors thoughts.
Questions:
Perhaps my impression is based on too few samples. So I wanted to ask others.
My questions to those with kids in k-12: In your experience, is the practice of not handing back tests common in your school district? If so, is it certain grade levels? Certain courses? Do you recall things being different when you were in k=12? (If yes, perhaps mention when you were in high school. I graduated in ’77.)
If you have an opinion of the practice, can you explain pro and cons?
I’m afraid I see mostly cons, but perhaps I am mistaken. I’ve heard some ‘pros’ like: ‘maybe it prevents cheating’. But it seems to me that more easily accomplished by writing a fresh test every year and proper proctoring of exams. It’s not impossible to write fresh tests– the New York Regents does write a fresh one every year. The AP Physics free response questions are new every year. My mother wrote fresh Chemistry tests every year. But perhaps I’ve overlooked something beneficial about the practice in situations where it happens.
Your thoughts welcome. Oh… and feel free to discuss Arctic Ice. 🙂
Update: Links
I’m posting links to articles that discuss this issue. I’m googling and will post anything in depth.
http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/424855-grading-papers-and-returning-homework-question-for-those-with-kids-in-high-school/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/class-struggle/post/why-schools-refuse-to-let-exams-go-home/2013/07/10/7daeae6e-e984-11e2-a301-ea5a8116d211_blog.html
Now you’ve made me fell really old. I have no idea whether test papers were returned in my day or not (secondary school from 66-73, college to 76).
Steve Ta,
My big sis also says she doesn’t remember what the policy was. So not everyone remembers. That said: She wasn’t in STEM, policies in college may have differed across majors.
But I still remember everyone crowding out of big lecture classes to see the questions and posted answers. Even smaller classes– the tests and solutions were posted promptly and everyone wanted to look at them. We got our own back often with very little attention to privacy. Dr. Pearson — math, just made made three piles with beginning/middle/ end of alphabet in order.
But I know my HS teachers also gave them back. Miss Britt often gave us studying advice. Freshman year, she gave advice on highlighting text books for review, keeping tests to use for review and so on. It was very helpful. Otherwise, figuring out what you need to review is a research topic in and of itself. You figure it out wrong you can study endlessly focusing on material that is not considered important to learn, and then BAM!
My kids (grade’s 3 and 6) get their tests back. I’m fairly certain my daughter got her tests back through high school. I haven’t formed an opinion yet, but I’ll let you know after I think it through.
Mark Bofill,
Oddly, if the purpose is studying for midterms and finals, I think returning them is very important in highschool and college. Less so in grade school. I got stuff back in grade school. But we didn’t have midterms and finals before…. hmm… at least 7th grade? Not sure we even had them then. I don’t recall the year ending with tests in junior high.
As we didn’t have mid-terms and finals pre-highschool, I didn’t use returned tests to ‘study’ back then. But I did get them back.
Lucia,
Now that I think of it, my kids get tests back that are essentially the list of answers they wrote in response to verbal questions. This is for some tests. Others (most? I’d have to check) are online these days. I’m sure we can review these.
In this day and age, if the kid gets time with their paper then they could probably get photos of it.
That would help but maybe they’d need another session with the teacher to get any clarification.
TTTM,
I would have expected them to take photos. But students in two different systems told me the method of going over tests was for the teacher to schedule a brief session with 1 student at a time and then go over the test personally with them. So taking the photo was not possible– and moreover, evidently doing so was considered some sort of violation of a code and would involve sanctions if someone caught them. So, evidently, it wasn’t done and things are organized to strongly discourage the practice.
Whether some students might not manage to anyway, I couldn’t say. But the fact is, it didn’t used to be necessary.
Lucia,
I’m with you on wanting to be able to review my test privately. It wouldn’t be an issue for me today of course, but as a kid I was in awe of (at least some) of my professors and I wouldn’t have been able to concentrate during a one on one discussion with them anyway. I’d have been mortified to go over my mistakes with the ones I had a high opinion of.
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Review for the midterm or final, certainly.
.
What are the downsides? The professor has to make up a new test every year. Oh Noes! Write a new set of tests every YEAR?!?!. It just doesn’t seem that onerous to me, but you know more about writing tests than I do, so correct me if I’m being unreasonable on that.
Regarding your links:
My blood pressure spiked just reading this.
Mark,
Obviously, writing good test questions involves work. Making sure you have a good balance of questions involves work. But lots of other things involve work too: Lessons plans, setting up labs, grading, running class itself.
I’m all for doing things efficiently– so don’t make work if the extra effort isn’t worth it. But in my view (which others may dispute), handing back tests and making last years available has one of the lowest “cost benefit” ratios in teaching.
As much as people lament students caring more about grades than learning as learning, the fact is that if it’s easy for them to get good useful practice materials, many will be motivated to learn what you hope they learn because doing so will earn them what they currently want: a good grade. So they will do extra problems precisely because they are relevant and the students believe they will be relevant.
Assuming your tests are assessing the student ability or knowledge on topics you consider important for them to master, the students proactive decision to study those things ought to be a good thing.
Then, after the test, many will focus on problems they already tried. And that also results in learning.
All in all, not giving the tests back to reduce this particular contribution to the work load strikes me as wrong headed. As I said: not sure about elementary level. But high school on– especially if you’ve got students hoping to go to college– handing back tests is, I think, what everyone should do.
I can’t recall ever not receiving back a taken test – except state run aptitude multiple choice of course.
I would be extremely concerned at the practice. I can recall several instances in college where I received back tests that were incorrectly graded. Once, it took me an entire semester to convince a prof that he had incorrectly answered his own Coriolis problem. He didn’t understand the calculus and was following some pattern he had stuck in his head. It didn’t help that more than half the class had copied his lessons to the point that they had gotten the same answer.
Had he not returned the test, nobody would have ever known.
More importantly than that, I’ve gotten plenty of tests returned with wrong answers of my own, and that is when the learning took place.
Jeff Id,
Honestly, if it were my kid I’d be talking to the administration and bringing it up in the PTA and the school board. I think the policy is that bad.
Yes. Heck, the same is even true for graded homework. The pattern is:
1) You make a reasonable attempt to work the problem.
2) You turn it in.
3) If it’s correct: done.
4) If it’s incorrect, you get it back. You go study the posted solution to learn what you didn’t understand. Learning happens.
The thing is: many students are somewhat motivated to gain knowledge as knowledge. If they weren’t they wouldn’t enroll in a program at all. But once in a program or class, the fact of grading does encourage them to look at that specific stuff. So students will pay attention to material that is returned to them and learn from it.
Handing it back gives them time to do the learning in whatever way best suits them. For me, and I would suggest plenty of others, that is not having a teacher hovering over me explaining. It is sitting in a relatively quite location, looking at a worked solution and also reading notes and text.
I’m with Jeff. I cannot remember not getting any test back.
I suspect that returning them meant more work for the teacher or graduate assistants.
Based on possibly misguided advice from my dad, I always took courses which were hard for me, but was lucky in many of them. In the lucky ones which were technical, partial credit was given for setting up the solution correctly even if the result was screwed up by insensitivity to order of magnitude – the challenge of the slide rule. For example, in concrete and steel design, we used to get 50% for an accurate cartoon of how the frame would deflect under load.
Alas, The HP 35 didn’t show up until i was out of school.
I do remember that my tests were frequently returned with some really sarcastic (but helpful) remarks from the GAs.
Most of the testing at Wash U in the early ’60s was essay or problems, not multiple choice.
To not return an essay or problem test would miss an opportunity for students to be relieved of their misconstructions of the material, and in my view would be criminal.
jferguson,
I handed back tests along with a rubric indicating EXACTLY how I computed partial credit. It showed things like:
*you got credit for identifying each required governing equation (cons mass, cons momentum or whatever mattered in the problem), *recognizing what was important in the boundary conditions (atmospheric pressure at the exit of an open pipe? That sort of thing)
*simplifying for particular case, organizing the problem
and so on.
The second semester I did that, the students asked if they could have the test/rubric at the beginning of a topic– and I gave them those. They asked, “what if they did the problem correctly, but with another method”, I said, “I’ll figure that out. If more than 2 of you use an alternate method and any only did it partially correct, I’ll create a 2nd rubric.” (This did sometimes happen, but not often. A few kids would integrate to find the force on a submerged object rather than using the method discussed in the book.)
Some might think handing out the rubric makes things too “monkey see monkey do”. But in reality, once students knew they had a way that always worked, they asked about other things. Like “what if we draw the control volume inside the pipe”, or “what if we drew a horizontal line across the inclined pipe instead of going at 90 to the pipe inlet?” We could then discuss why those choices made the problem more difficult to solve.
Without the rubric, they often had some notion there is only one way to do a problem, and that partial credit is just some sort of ‘gift’. It’s not. It reflects the level of understanding and ability to apply it to a problem. (FWIW: The AP physics test free response portion is basically a “partial credit” system for the longer problems. They also use a rubric.)
In this case: decades worth of tests (but no rubrics) were available at the department office. I advised students to get a test from any previous year, and practice them — often they consulted the rubric when doing so.
Lucia,
I got burned this way once in e-mag. Obnoxious professor. I didn’t solve the problem the way he intended, although my solution and method were obviously OK. When I pointed this out the guy smiled at me and said, sure. I’ll give you eight points there and take eight points away someplace else. After a startled moment, I turned around, sat back down, and kept my mouth shut the remainder of the term.
Lucia,
in your time teaching did you encounter any students who showed up before first class and wanted to know precisely what they needed to do to ace your course? I ask because this was a common occurrence where my daughter was a GA. We both thought this a character defect that the admissions program selected for.
Her students tended in the direction so well demonstrated by the “Wellesley” students portrayed in Mona Lisa Smile.
A’s were pursued with such fanaticism that her addition of a couple of spurious words to a list of course keywords showing on an unattended terminal belonging to another GA led to the appearance that afternoon of three students wanting to know where these words could be found in the readings.
There were also the legalistic arguments at the end of term when something less than A had been earned; “Show me where what I have done fails to meet the requirements you gave us at the beginning of the term.”
All of this to get to graduate school where their father’s exasperation would lead to trading in their undergraduate BMW for the de rigeur clapped out Sentra more appropriate to graduate school.
Mark,
Yes. This is why students doing it a different way required a second rubric. But it was only required if they didn’t do the question right. Anyway, even with the first rubric in hand, they could sort of gauge whether it’s worth arguing they should get more points. They could look and say “Did I write down a governing equation and not get any points for that? , “Did I recognize what was known and unknown in the problem statement and not get any points?” and so on. They knew “integrating correctly blah, blah, blah…” was all encompassed in “simplifying….” The fact that their method involved more effort relative to looking up a moment of inertia didn’t mean that part became more points. It meant that by picking a method that required more effort to simplify, they made the problem more difficult than if they did it another way. But the problem was still worth 33 points and that part– still only the amount it was worth. (At least that’s how I viewed it and as far as I can tell, students thought that view fell in the vicinity of ‘fair’.)
“vicinity of ‘fair'” ++++
jferguson
Never. Had they done so, I would have handed them the syllabus which told them the topics, when the tests were, listed the problems that would be assigned, how much each elements counted and so on. Other than that, if asked further, I could have told them to get tests from the department office and look at them.
Note sure what else anyone could tell them.
Mona Lisa Smile is evidently about teaching Art. In basic engineering classes, if all or even most the students happened to have already learned all the material before taking the class it would be wise devise a system where they could prove they knew material and test out of the class and earn credit without taking it. Then let them graduate quickly or take more advanced classes. That would be better than deviating from the syllabus.
Who knows, with MOOC’s that might start to happen. (Though I rather doubt it.)
jferguson
I had exactly 1 student protest a score. She’d gotten a 98 and thought 1 points for losing the 1/2 when simplifying Bernouilli’s eqation and then also not getting the 1 point for “final numerical answer correct” was too much. I told her, no, my policy was one only got the 1 point for “final numerical answer correct” if the “final numerical answer was correct“. Of course that meant that if the only thing she’d done wrong was hit calculator buttons incorrectly, she’d have a 99. But if she got it wrong because of some other error, she would be dinged for that other error and not getting the final answer correct.
I’m not at all sure she agreed with me, but there was another student waiting to talk to me, and he said he agreed with me. (Possibly a suck up. Who knows?)
BTW: “Wrote down correct units also involved points” for a number of reasons including that not writing them down would otherwise not result in a deduction of points. Oddly, from time to time, a student would thank me for ‘correct units’ being on the rubric because they learned to always check their units so they could at least get those points! Then the discovered…. you can detect mistakes that way. Wow! 🙂 )
The fact is: if given to students, rubrics actually help them learn certain types of material. It might not be important in all classes, but in beginning thermo, fluids, statics etc. it can really help.
Class of ’58 at High School!
Of course we were handed back tests – and none of this nonsense of multiple choice (goes on long rant about education today compared to Southern Hemisphere a long, long time ago).
Lucia,
I had this happen freshman year. i took first year Latin. Instructor asked each of us (about 15) how much Latin they’d had. i was the only one who had none – which was a lot less than the three years most of the rest of them had. Instructor decided to raise the level of the class and suggested that I should drop since it was unlikely that i’d be able to keep up. I did.
Today, I’m not sure that i should have accepted the instructor’s solution, but at the time, I was overwhelmed by how much harder U was than high school had been.
jferguson,
Well that solutions s*cked. It would mean no one can take Latin 1. If that was a required course or a prerequisite to something else, you were stuck.
The better solution is for the school to let kids test out of a class if they already know the material. That’s the point of having things like AP, CLEP and schools can have their own tests for special topics.
Hamish
I don’t necessarily mind multiple choice. The speed of grading permits the teacher to test a broad range of material rather than only a narrow one.
It works well for some types of material and at the lower levels of Blooms taxonomy. (See http://www.nwlink.com/~donclark/hrd/bloom.html ) It’s often adequate for testing “memory”, “understanding” and even “application” when application involves identifying fewer than 2 principles, and very little math (or whatever other juggling is required.)
They can be good for diagnosing precisely where a kid got lost. More complex problems often fail in that regard because you can’t tell where the problem is.
Multiple choice tends to be horrible if the application involves several principles and quite a bit of math (or other juggling.) So it shouldn’t be used for that. In STEM classes, a mix of multiple choice and free response is often useful.
The other issue with multiple choice is that if the test writer is not careful, the questions tend toward ambiguous. Also they often have “features” that make them guessable by those with good “multiple choice” skillzzz.
For better or worse things have gotten a lot more. . . interesting.
For example one can not simply leave tests out for the students to grab from a pile because there are privacy issues if someotherbunny sees their tests. This has lead to work arounds including only using ID #s (even that is frowned upon in some places if ID #s are searchable, so you need to issue a number to each student specially for your class).
Handing a test back has always carried with it a risk of erasing (or adding something in). General rule is each student gets one bite, but it is a problem and does occur. Not always, but it is a hell of a pain to photocopy every test. One or two, sure.
The issue of students collecting old tests is also a bit more complex. For example, frats often collect tests for their members. Should they have an advantage. Not so simple.
Eli,
I don’t think leaving the tests on a table in three piles would be considered acceptable anymore. People have gone nuts about privacy. But that doesn’t mean one couldn’t device mechanisms for handing tests back if one valued handing them back. The most efficient method would depends on resources. Some large lab classes have smaller TA sessions– so have the questions handed back then. Or come up with another system. But simply not handing back to maintain privacy strikes me as unreasonable.
Yes. There is some risk of erasing. That’s not new– it’s always been a risk. Some profs used to draw diagonal lines over blank regions and on the backs of tests. That at least avoided the “you forgot to check the back” excuse.
If an automated scanner that sucked in sheets existed, this could be protected against — though it would involve unstapling which is tedious. All the scans could be stored. Students would be aware tests were scanned, which would likely reduce the temptation to attempt erasure.
The issue of students — for example fraternities– collecting old tests that aren’t available to all and creating differential access can be entirely mitigated by the departmental office keeping a file of old tests and permitting students to check them out and copy them. It’s not clear to me that this is a huge problem anyway. Few students benefit more than 2 tests to practice from anyway. So, having zillions of tests isn’t much of an advantage over having access to two. But for those students with few social connects, lack of access to two tests might be a disadvantage. In those instances, the faculty member making two tests available on line can help. That would rarely be difficult.
Lucia, every one of those things is possible, and every one of those things requires more time and effort.
Lucia writes “If an automated scanner that sucked in sheets existed, this could be protected against — though it would involve unstapling which is tedious. All the scans could be stored. Students would be aware tests were scanned, which would likely reduce the temptation to attempt erasure.”
Automated scanners certainly exist. Staples aren’t the only option. It would make sense for exams to be scanned as a matter of course and then the markers can deal with the electronic version rather than stacks of papers.
I think with the new tablets and increasing support for styluses that this may not be too far away.
Eventually students could answer the tests themselves “electronically” but that’s a fair way off I suspect.
lucia (Comment #138569)
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“many” or “some”. I suspect there are lots of teachers out there who despair at students who look at returned exercises or tests only as far as the grade, not bothering to figure out where their answers went wrong.
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Some teachers go over the content and if the student doesn’t get it, it’s the students fault. Others try to motivate the students; best wishes to them. Then there is “the system” … which puts teachers in a conflict of interest — is the teacher there to help the students learn or is he or she there to evaluate them? Tests are an important part of learning, but if the grade becomes the all-consuming goal, the learning is perverted. IMHO.
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Therefore, my opinion is that the only exams which may be kept from the students are final exams which are retained by the school for a specified period for complaint resolution, which is done by a disinterested party.
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Freeman Dyson wrote about Einstein’s teacher suggesting he leave because he was disrupting the classroom. Not the modern kind of disruption, rather that he diminished the authority of the teacher by being too good. We certainly wouldn’t want exams withheld because of teachers like that.
A significant amount of public school teaching is “teaching to the test”. There are a *lot* more standardized tests given out. Teacher and even Administrator careers are on the line for student performance on many of these tests.
Bonuses are paid to administrators all the way up as well as to teachers for good results.
A formula for many things.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/cheating-standardized-tests-can-criminal-act/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/school-cheating-scandal/
Eli
Of course. Preparing lectures takes time and effort. Organizing labs takes effort. Grading papers takes effort. Yet, presumably that they take effort is not seen as a reason why they are not done. So that something takes effort is not, in and of itself, a reason why it ought not to be done. The question is whether the benefit is worth the time and effort.
I certainly think making a posting a copy of an exam and its solution that was just handed out and graded is worth the effort. If one simply spared oneself the extra effort of removing it from the web, it would remain available to next years students. So I think one could spare oneself that effort.
I also think returning graded exams to students is worth the effort.
I personally wouldn’t bother with the scanning of all the exams, principly because I never found “erasure” to of exams to be a problem. But someone who did find it a problem or who was very anxious about the possibility might find it worth it. You brought up that possibility, so I thought I would suggest to you there was an alternative to photocopying each students test.
TimTheToolMan
MOOC’s have online tests. Also, Moodle permits electronic testing. There are some types of problems that are more difficult to have tested using electronic formats. But multiple choice is trivial. There are other questions formats that work too electronically.
Also, my impression is some people set up a sort of “white board” system, so students can enter free response on a “white board”. Then the answers all exist electronically. There are no privacy issues handing things back.
I’m not entirely sure how the proctor these though. I only use moodle to permit students practice problems if they want them or for some, to go over particular concepts they are weak on. Using moodle means I don’t have to lug worksheets, paper notebooks and so on.
Some do practice problems on their own. Some don’t. Whether they should do mine and when they should do mine sort of depends on their own teachers approach.
hunter,
I have mixed feelings about using standardized tests to evaluate teachers and schools. On the one hand, they need something objective go gauge effectiveness. On the other hand, time spent on standardized test is time not spent teaching and testing broad curriculum would require a lot of test. On the third hand, tests that cover only narrow material do tempt teachers to narrow the curriculum (even though, ironically, that might turn out to not raise test scores.)
I also have the impression teachers don’t get specific feedback for individual students from these test. They know the score over all but not necessarily which questions an individual kid blew or which learning objectives the kids did poorly on. If so, that’s very unfortunate. If kids are going to be subjected to a test, and time taken from the class, at least the teachers should know which topics individual kids did poorly one. That information would help the teacher improve the class.
TTTM,
Actually, for standardized test or tests on scantron, there is no reason why someone like the college board couldn’t have machines similar to voting machines and require tests to be scanned in promptly. Similar machines are possible at schools — and easy for scantron. Doing so also simplifies the issue of returning tests to kids– you just have a class web site set up (which community colleges and high school’s now do routinely ). If scanned the tests can be sorted to the kid’s page, and voila! Available with no privacy issue.
I tend to think the two main reasons test are not made available are:
1) The teachers don’t want to make them available or
2) The teacher is using copyrighted material from a test bank and is subject to an agreement not to behave in a way that makes it easy for others (like students) to post the material in public.
Reason (1) is very poor. I think being able to return tests is sufficiently worthwhile that the teacher should rewrite problems to avoid copyright issues or find a test bank whose copyright owner doesn’t worry about questions becoming public. (The test bank writer– who, btw makes money selling questions — could continue making money by creating fresh questions and selling fresh test banks each year. )
Adaptive multiple choice was used my Microsoft for their MCSE online exams about 15 years ago so that technique is effective and well trodden.
But, as you say, multiple choice isn’t suitable for everything. In fact multiple choice is pretty limited, really.
Having said that, straight out typing is also suitable for quite a few subjects and frankly I’d prefer to use a word processor than a booklet. I expect many kids would too. Being left handed, I never really liked writing…too much smudging.
yes, Lucia, in the land of the 48 hour day and infinite energy there is enough time to do everything. In reality each teacher chooses the things that they consider most important within the constraints of the time available for teaching. That these may (do not ) correspond to your list is not particularly concerning.
Eli,
Don’t professors get
slave laboruhm graduate students to do these sorts of things anymore? [Edit: I thought they did] I’ve been out of school for decades now, maybe things have changed.Eli Rabbit, I’d enjoy your comments ever so much more if I could read them without getting snarky rabbit pellets on my shoes. Just sayin. 🙂
Eli,
You seem to find time in the workday to comment prolifically at blogs. It’s 9 am central time. Are you retired? Or at work currently?
In any case, I don’t think advocating that professors hand back tests is suggesting that one must do “everything”. Neither is advocating they grade tests, present lectures and so on. Obviously, one would expect them to do something as in “more than nothing”.
I think handing back tests is an activity they should spend time on. It’s also not very time consuming. If they are going to push back on other things, they should push back on things that have fewer benefits.
With respect to my suggestions of activities one could elect to do if one thought beneficial: You brought up
excusesreasons why one might think it would be somehow unjust to hand back tests (e.g. the possibility that frats would end up with large archives.)I pointed out that if you were concerned about that, the remedy would be fairly simple. I think most people realize that uploading a corrected exam to the web make all past tests available forever is not a particularly time consuming chore. It takes minutes. Certainly it takes less time than you spend commenting on blogs on the average day. Never taking the tests off the web requires no effort at all.
However, as I noted: I wouldn’t be concerned about that particular injustice. So, I wouldn’t expend much time to remedy that particular ‘problem’. On the other hand, I wouldn’t see it as an excuse to not hand back corrected tests at all. You already have the tests, you’ve already corrected them. Just hand them back as teachers and professors have done for eons.
Beyond that: I’m not sure which activity you consider time consuming. Many schools now routinely set up a web site for each course, and create log ins for each student. College of DuPage does it and the system is automated. It permits the professor to send out mass emails at a minimum, and also post copies of the syllabus.
At least 3 local high schools I’m aware of do it. Often this is done to save faculty time and effort. (For examples: students who lose their syllabus don’t need to waste faculty time to find another one. Also, class announcements are easy to find– once again, no need to phone the professor.)
When such exist, posting a scanned corrected test is as trivial as entering your comment here and clicking “submit”.
FWIW: it’s trivial to hand back individual scanned multiple choice tests using MOODLE. You can create tests with bubble sheets, hand them out, collect the bubble sheets, scan them in and MOODLE will place the scored sheet in the student’s account. (https://moodle.org/plugins/view/mod_offlinequiz) This is limited to multiple choice– but it’s doable. If a automatic scanner exists, its no more time consuming than regular scantron.
So it seems to me you are simply assuming that methods that allow students to be given their tests is more time consuming that methods that deprive them of that. This is not necessarily the case. Changing methods can actually be save time.
Of course if some bunny thinks other important things leave no time for handing back tests, some bunny may well be permitted to do so. But hat hardly means I can’t criticize the practice and suggest his priorities are sub-optimal.
Of course, if some bunny just doesn’t want to hand back tests, I imagine some bunny won’t wish to look into ways to do it. Not even if using those methods would save some bunny time and effort.
Lucia,
I think the issue may be the need to actually create a different test each time the course is taught…. I had a couple of professors who made minimal (or no!) changes year to year, so the frats did have a field day with those professor’s tests. Maybe bunnies are particularly averse to the ‘extra work’ involved in changing tests.
SteveF,
I have no doubt that’s the issue for some. But I think that would fall under the “bad reasons” category. Large lecture classes like Chemistry 101 are the ones that result in large inventories of test questions– and they are the easiest ones to create fresh questions for. You find 10 introductory chemistry books, and pick one of two of your favorite books, pull out out appropriate problems form appropriate sections possibly changing values of knowns where that is possible. (I think this is a little easier in physics and calculus than chemistry.)
Within 5 semesters, a faculty member ought to have several versions of each question “type”. If he’s in a time crunch and creates the new test by cutting and pasting questions randomly drawn from the old test. If it’s multiple guess, the test preparer can shuffle the (a)-(g) answers. In this case , the “advantage” a person with access to all five tests as is to work all five tests and so be prepared for all those questions. (And heck, if a new faculty member gets the tests from the last 5 years that’s a head start. Or write his buddies to get their tests for the last 5 years. )
But anyone who actually successfully works all 5 questions probably knows the material. So I’m not seeing much horror in the thought that giving students tests back might induce or help them to learn the material.
Of course it might be better to create brand spanking new versions– but depending on the course, the questions really don’t vary much. In introductory physics, you sometimes vary by “changing the numbers” or “he throws a pumpkin instead of a football”.
It’s harder to write completely new good tests at the graduate level. But I really don’t think the “fraternity archives” a huge issue there.
I went to grad school for materials science, highly regarded upstate NY engineering school, new place for me so I have no connections available off the bat, I needed to keep a 3.0 GPA to keep my grant so I’m motivated to get grades, go through the first couple cycles of testing and I am getting killed. I am getting killed by students that barely attend class or do homework. Finally talk to another student who says, “Don’t you have copies of the old tests?” These had been kept by old timers in the department & with these as a guide, the clouds were lifted and it became smooth sailing.
I remain amazed at the absolute laziness of the professors who, in courses where there is a plethora of interesting topics to delve into, will basically repeat the same questions over and over at the grad level. It rewards the connected, punishes the loners, and these professors couldn’t care less.
The Dean of Architecture when I started out, required that we take real Physics – same as the guys who were going to be Physicists. This meant a semester with a wave tank (water type) and a semester with particles. This was also the year when we transitioned from Imperial nomenclature, Pi^2, kgc^2.on to Pascals.
In addition the teaching team, bless their hearts, was writing the textbook (in hopes of later publication) as we went along. If you didn’t understand the lecture, the text would not help. Never take a course from the guy who wrote the book. Of course I didn’t know this going in.
The problem sets were challenging. The guys who would make their way in the discipline reputedly could complete a set in an hour or two. For the rest of us it was more like 40 hours. And BTW, this was the first time I encountered people who I recognized as wildly smarter than I thought I was – not the last time, though.
For three weeks I did the problem sets myself. I quickly realized that I couldn’t go on this way and keep up with much my other coursework. The other non-physicists were sharing the load by sitting around a table and collaborating on the work such that two guys would work each problem and they would all share the results.
This seemed to fly and the guys that did this seemed to do well on the tests. I thought it was cheating, but had to concede that I seemed to test close to my actual comprehension of the material (not too good).
I did pass – barely. After a checkered career in technical stuff, I realized that the course was good preparation for a life spent doing things I didn’t understand.
I suppose i should mention that my Lab Assistant was Walter Massey, later to find his way to chairmanship of Bank of America. He asked me about the time that he’d gotten a good grasp of my prowess in the stuff if i intended to major in Physics.
“No”
“That’s probably better, Ferguson.”
jferguson
It’s ok to take a course from a guy who wrote the book if:
(1) The book has been published and is used by people at other universities or
(2) You are on an edition greater than 1.
In the case of (1), the person who wrote the book often is great. But if they are in the process of writing the first edition, you have a lose-lose-lose. (A) The person is busy ‘writing’ which might cut into running the class. (B) HE has a disorganized mess on his hands. (C) You don’t have the benefits of a text which, even if imperfect, would at least have an index, chapters, problems etc.
As an undergraduate, it’s nearly always horrible to take a course who is lecturing from his notes which he is using while writing his first edition of his new book. It’s risky to take one like that in grad school, but at least there is sometimes an excuse– like no book exists. In that case, the course might be good and novel. But Physics 101? Books exist.
Oh boy–
New students to tutor yesterday. All great kids.
But one of them is in a first (for her) contact physics class, and (as far as I can tell) all the homework problems are written at the “evaluating” level of Blooms taxonomy.
As far as I can tell, she’s not getting any at the “Remembering, understanding, applying, or analyzing” level to preceded these. Very. Odd.
Lucia,
Sounds like you are doing a lot of tutoring. When did you start doing that?
Lucia,
your comments on effects of the profs writing the text as they went along are spot-on. i only took one Physics 101 (117 in this case) so I don’t know what usually happens in one of these classes, but i think our’s was quite different – hence no existing text. I wasn’t kidding about a semester of wave tank.
I think it’s a good thing to have experimental classes like this one apparently was, but maybe not for required courses.
You’ve clearly thought about these things a lot. Thanks
Lucia,
What does a homework problem in physics at the evaluating level of that taxonomy look like?
Mark Bofill,
First I’ll describe 1-D kinematics problem at a lower level.
Someone could say something like
You are driving at 100 m/s and are 200 m from the intersection. What is the minimum magnitude of deceleration that will permit you to stop without entering the intersection?
A higher level in the taxonomy:
You are driving at 100 m/s and are 200 m from the intersection and your brakes permit you to decelerate at 30m/s^2. Meanwhile you can accelerate from 100 m/s to 200 m/s in 3 seconds. The intersection is 15 m wide. The yellow light lasts 2 seconds.
Should you hit the brakes or accelerate?
Of course I made all these numbers up (and you are probably driving the Batmobile which can accelerate using it’s thrusters.) The reason the 2nd question is at a different level in the taxonomy is the student has to think about what the ‘problem’ is. So, in this case you have to reason:
(a) I don’t want to break and end up stuck in the intersection.
(b) I don’t want to accelerate and then still run the red light.
Only after figuring those issues out can you figure out what “physics” problem you even want to solve. So one is:
1) Find out your stopping distance. If it’s longer than the distance to the intersection, you probably ought to try accelerating.
2) Find out whether you can accelerate and get to the intersection before the light turns red.
(Of course, if you are a prudent driver, you want to get through the intersection before it turns to red rather than merely enter before it turns red. But that’s not really a physics judgement.)
This isn’t necessarily sophisticated evaluation. But having this problem before other that just have you compute a stopping distance is possibly not the best order!
Lucia,
I see now. Mostly I only remembered solving problems that asked for numeric solutions, like “with what final speed does Wil.E.Coyote impact the canyon floor”, or “how many seconds later does the anvil crash down on his head”.
Most of my math / stats / logic classes spent the full class immediately after a test re-working selected problems and Q/A and, if I recall correctly, the solution accounted for a percentage of the total.
My son, 19, a college sophomore, receives his test grades electronically and does not see actual graded papers — though to be honest, I don’t think he much cares. As long as he passes, he is content. Is it because times have changed or because he is a different person? Hard to say.
FWIW — I think it is great that you are giving back and taking the role of a mentor. Something for an old guy like me to consider …
I should also say that there were several classes where I just did not care what grade I received just as long as I passed; an accounting class comes to mind. Life is just to short for that type of pedantry.
markbofill,
Wil.E. Coyote, Road Runner, the anvil and so on remain staples of physics. As well they should.
lucia,
Sure there are Physics textbooks. But the whole point of the Feynman Lectures,for example, was to reorganize how Physics was taught. It didn’t work, but the lectures were fascinating. A significant fraction of the time, he’d get to the end of some multiple blackboard derivation and find he’d made a mistake somewhere along the way and the sign was wrong or a factor of pi was missing or something. But we received corrected notes in fairly short order.
DeWitt,
I think ‘lecture series’ are a different critter from “normal courses”.
Did Feynman give grades from his series? If so… on what content? Just curious. I don’t know how that worked. At U of Il, we has ‘graduate seminars’ for grad students. We were required to attend a minimum number, but the ‘grade’ was either ‘pass’ or ‘fail’. The entire point was to listen to a variety of presentations, see what they were like, learn something– but no specific content. Content just depended on who was invited.
Undergraduates could attend if the wanted. Heck, whoever wanted could attend. And if we liked, we could attend them in other departments and as that department to send a note over so you attending that seminar “counted” for us. The feature was very useful some semesters when the invitees at Mechanical and Industrial was lopsided toward some specialty and we could get fluids/heat transfer etc. over at Chem Eng or Mechanics. (Chem E had dounuts too. Special bonus!)
lucia,
It was just like any other undergraduate course. There were TA sessions, midterms, finals and grades. I think Caltech has since gone to pass/fail, but it was letter grades when I was there.
The Antarctic sea ice area anomaly has gone back to positive, so whatever was causing a pause in the freezing there has stopped, or something. Arctic sea ice extent isn’t going to set a new record low, but it could be second lowest, below even 2007. However, this is why extent alone is not the best measure. Arctic sea ice area is currently sixth from the bottom. So the ice concentration is quite a bit higher than the past few years. The implication is that ice volume has not dropped at the same rate as ice extent. We’ll see in a few days when the August PIOMAS data are posted.
DeWitt–
I couldn’t help thinking about how much better the Wiley Coyote problems can be.
If my memory serves me correctly, yesterday, a student was presented with a problem where a package was dropped out of a plane traveling horizontally at — 185 km/hr. Is she supposed to assume no drag as the package drops? Yep. Is she supposed to find out the horizontal distance below the drop point. Yep.
I told her the rule was unless stated otherwise, neglect frictional effects. (Even if it doesn’t make sense.)
I suspect some problems were coded into a system similar to Moodle and someone used a random number generator to create new problems. They probably picked “A number between 100 and 1000” or something like that. (Values in actual books tend not to be screwy.)
The advantage of “Wile E Coyote problems” is the cartoon aspect makes it easier for a student to just treat this as an exercise and not worry about whether ‘no friction’ makes any sense while solving.
lucia,
They could have said a bomb instead of a package, but that would be non-PC. Bombs are dense enough that ignoring air resistance is a reasonable assumption. That speed is about right for a small plane. A Piper Cub couldn’t go even that fast, top speed 137 km/hr. The cruising speed of a Japanese WWII Betty bomber was 315km/hr at 3km altitude.
The solution to that problem is why the atom bombs dropped on Japan had parachutes attached.
DeWitt
Yes. Bombs could be heavy enough for aerodynamic drag to not make a big difference. Also, when designing a bomb, someone might intentionally make the bomb long and pointy to maximize weight and minimize drag.
Packages are usually squarish — or perhaps barrel shaped. If one intends to drop them from a plane contain the the stuff one wants to deliver surrounded by light fluffy stuff like packing peanuts or bubble wrap! (A parachute would be a nice touch.)
lucia,
Yes, and even put fins on the back. As I remember from movies about WWII, it’s pretty clear that aerodynamic drag on a bomb, at least the size of bombs they carried on B17’s, was minimal. The bombs explode pretty much directly below the bomber as expected if there’s no change in horizontal velocity.
Lucia,
I recall from the 5th grade on (Miss Williams’ class who also taught my father in 5th grade in the same classroom) that I was shown the graded tests and papers. I don’t remember school much before the 5th grade.
It seems to me that it is as educational to look at the graded tests as it is educational to: a) initially learn the material in class, b) study the material at home before test and c) take the test.
John
I am a mathematics teacher at year 11 and year 12 level (this is called ‘college’ in the ACT (Canberra, Australia) school system). We generally hand back tests. However, there is an exception for what is known as moderation. For semester 2 of year 11 and semester 1 of year 12, we need to set aside the assessment tasks of all students so that when final scores are finalised we can take the work of the top A, top B and top C students to be moderated by teachers from other colleges. We have handed photocopied work back to students, but this is not always practicable to do in a timely manner – if the test is stapled, or in booklet form, photocopying 200 tests would be a difficult task, as that would require dismantling them all. After moderation is over – which is in the next semester – we hand work back. But that is a bit late for learning purposes…
They do get time to go through their tests in class, but we collect them and they cannot take them away. This makes appeals a little tricky for students, unfortunately.
David
David,
If they had camera’s in their phones, would you allow them to photograph their graded tests?
lucia,
Yes, that would not be a problem – in fact, it is a very good solution. It is possible that some students have already been doing that without me noticing. But I think that what I will do from now on will be to explicitly mention that option. Thanks. 🙂
I should mention that I am a new teacher (2nd year) and have not completely worked everything out about what things work and do not work. In another 20 or 30 years, I might have some of it sorted out.
David,
The students I tutor aren’t allowed to take photos of their tests either. They pretty much have to try to go by memory.
I don’t expect teachers to be perfect by any means. Who is? Beyond that, no teacher can be perfect for each and every student in the class. It just strikes me that returned graded exams in the hands of students is such a great pedagogical tool that it makes no sense not to let the students have them if at all possible. It seems teachers around here s have decided the opposite and I just don’t get it.
2 notes- For Wiley Coyote has anyone ever asked the question “What would the coefficent of friction between feet and air be to stop Coyote in 5 milleseconds?
The worst testing I ever encountered was in the first offering of a computer science course( few years ago) ~300 3rd year students. On the first day the prof made some introductory remarks and then held up a large paperback book with FORTRAN on the front. “oh, you’ll need to pick up a copy of this at the bookstore to learn FORTRAN. The homework problems and test questions will use it.”
The tests were computer generated, all multiple choice, and the answers all used the format a. xxxx b.yyyy c.zzzz d. a and b, e. b and c f. a, b, and c
Every test included the same questions and answers with the questions in a different order, and the answers randomized.
It could take a teaching assistant an hour or more to go through the test with students to help them find matching questions and answers and work them through.
Blithering show-offs. The second year a FORTRAN course became a perequisite.
Except @ R1s most faculty do not have grad student markers. Sorry for being late.
I don’t hand back exams, and I really struggled with this issue. Here are my thoughts:
The fundamental reason I don’t hand back exams is to keep copies of tests being passed around. I teach Urban Planning and it is extremely difficult to come up with good questions for multiple choice exams. I do change them from year to year, but I could not come up with entirely new exams each year.
I do 2 quizzes each term, and I do hand those back to aid in studying for the mid-term and final. The final is not comprehensive, it just covers the second half of the year. So the mid term would not help you study.
Finally, I go over in class the questions that people struggled with, so students learn the correct answer.
I’m still considering how best to handle this.
Frank
I don’t know anything about Urban Planning, so I’m willing to believe it’s hard to come up with good questions. If so, that could be a good reason.
I can say with some confidence that it’s not at all difficult to come up with new multiple choice questions in high school. Teachers don’t even need to come up with their own. They can get them from numerous test banks, years worth published New York State Regent’s tests and published tests from Ontario Canada. A teacher could easily have 90*20 questions by getting the New York State Regent’s tests, by downloading the past 10 years of New York Regents tests. (In fact: someone has done that and created an upload for Moodle.) That’s is sufficiently many to make things unpredictable for students even without tweaking questions which is easily do-able. )