My understanding is the rapture is supposed to arrive at 6pm Pacific Time today. As an atheist, I guess I’ll be staying put. If any of you have last requests or want to send me huge wads of money before you are assumed into heaven, let me know sometime in the next two hours.
Needless to say, since some of you will be leaving us, this is an open thread, and you are allowed to stray off topic. I’m going to go pour myself some wine, sit on the patio and enjoy what will surely be the last beautiful day of eternity. 🙂
If I don’t find myself in heaven….does that mean I’m in the other place?
Those are prairie dogs, but for a moment I thought they were lemmings.
I’m cleaning the garage, and when I’m done I’ll open up a nice bottle of wine and then watch the skies from my front porch to watch all the righteous people get beamed up like Scotty.
Should be fun.
/sarc
Tony–
I’m fuzzy on the details. My sister say she heard pets don’t go. Some specific round number of people get raptured. The rest of us…. I don’t know. Maybe the weather gets really bad. Oh… I googled. I guess it was supposed to be at 6 pm in each time zone. It evidently got delayed in Europe and New Zealand. We are supposed to get earth quakes etc.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/05/harold-camping-rapture-fails-to-arrive-in-europe-atheist-party-to-begin-in-oakland.html
There is a church near my home which has a sign that says, “You don’t have to check your brain at the door”. The implication is that for other churches you must, indeed, check your brain at the door. Such idiocy as this Rapture thing is evidence of the brain’s being destitute of life or that religion is best defined as collective insanity.
I’m not much on wine, so I’ll have a Sam Adams. I better hurry; I only have another 35 minutes. Oh noes!
cheers,
gary
I hear a lot of kids are depositing clothes and shoes in piles on the streets to mimic the left-behind items of the enraptured.
If the elect do disappear, parking will be so much easier.
There is an awesome book called “When Prophesy Fails” by Leon Festinger. I got mine out of the unversity archives – well worth the effort.
It was published in the 50’s and is about cognitivite dissonance. His intro (or early chapters? going from memory here..) considers some historical “end of the world” movements like the Millerites in the 1800s (1830s?) but then fascinatingly moves on to a contemporary group that believed the end of the world would happen Dec 21st, 1954. Festinger sent 2 psychologists incognito to join and study the movement.
When the world didn’t end on Dec 21st here was what happened.
Those on the periphery of the group difted off and later, of course, admitted what numbnuts they had been.
Those in the core of the group who had given up their jobs, given away their money and/or spoken publicly about the end of the world being on Dec 21st became yet more zealous converts.
There is no confusion that the world didn’t end on that date, and yet, extra time had been granted, date revisions were made.. somehow it all made sense.
But what really makes sense is that the mind cannot cope with too much “dissonance”.
If you’ve made a total tit of yourself publicly and repeatedly, the brain tells you “you’ve got it right” regardless of the overwhelming evidence. Even the world not ending, which should be quite compelling evidence..
Festinger is regarded as the founder of cognitive dissonance (well, the theory thereof, the brain is the actual founder..)
When trying to understand why people can’t deal with evidence, cognitive dissonance is an excellent explanation.
Of course, that’s true of other people..
Science of Doom–
I’m sure tomorrow we’ll hear theories of what went wrong. Evidently, this televangelist predicted the end of the world in 1994 also; 2011 is his first revision. I also read the reason we are all aware of this is they spent a massive amount of money on advertising. (The point of advertising isn’t clear to me. My sister told me the prediction says very specific number of people will be saved. Presumably advertising might change which people, but not the number. I don’t remember the number.)
Humm.. I am sitting at the airport in Savaldor, Brazil. I didn’t see anybody disappear at the time you said the rapture would take place. Maybe it does not apply to people who are (nominal, very nominal) Catholics, as most Brazilians are. Or maybe it is just delayed this far south… If it takes place in the next hour, then maybe I will have an empty seat next to me on my next flight; that would be nice.
Wait! It isn’t 6:00 PM Pacific time yet! I was confused about the time zones. Maybe I can still watch it take place. In case I am one of the lucky ones, I will but in a good word for you guys when I talk with God. (I trust you will do the same for me if you are raptured.)
SteveF–
One story I read said pacific time. The other says it arrives according to local time zone. It’s 6:22pm here. Nothing so far, but maybe I’m just not around the correct people.
Oh. Of course I’ll put in a good word with God if I get raptured at 6pm pacific (or any time zone). I’m figuring being an atheist sort of excludes me from the list. But who knows?
its a test of faith. If enough of he faithful believe, then end will be called off.
jeez, do I have to explain everything.
e
@lucia, IIRC, the number of people to be saved is only 144,000. There would be hundreds of millions who believe in the rapture around the globe, at a quick guess.
Why is this a news story. Not a trick question where did this particular cult get its traction in the media from?
dorlomin–
My impression is this particular group spent a lot of money on advertising. My brothers-in-law drove to Wisconsin to fish; they report they saw three billboards advertizing the May 21 rapture.
This has happened before. I can remember a very entertaining lecture in school on the events of 1,000 +/- CE. Since it was the millenium, it was supposed that this might be the time of the second coming, or I guess first depending on your persuasion. If it was the second, it would be a round-up of the “right people.” On the date identified, the believers went up to mountain tops all over Europe and Asia Minor.
When nothing happened, there was sudden interest in the calendar and how it might have been off, so they tried other dates and then other years and the decided they lacked enough grasp of the thing to waste any more time on mountain tops and came back to town and built better cathedrals and went off on crusades and other expressions of the confusion of the time.
so that’s the story. I’ve spent a lot of time looking for a source which would substantiate the story above, but couldn’t find anything like it. I thought it might be in Mackay’s “….Madness of Crowds,” but alas…
But with Tertullian, I believe it because it’s absurd.
Still here 6:32 PST
Anyone claiming to know when the rapture will happen, has either not read or not understood Jesus declarations:
Matthew 24:36-37
Matthew 24:26-27 (NIV)
Is time’s arrow absolute? Or are Biblical predictions fulfilled?
J. Barton Payne (1980) Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy Baker Books, ISBN : 978-0801070518,
Payne discusses 8352 predictive verses covering 1817 entries in Old and New Testaments.
Numerous of Jesus’ predictions were fulfilled. See: Payne pp 477 – 526 & 590-627.
Moses predicted:
Deuteronomy 15:18-22
That suggests that Jesus’ other predictions are also likely to happen.
Payne’s detailed documentation that provides the basis for a statistical test of whether prophecy exists.
Anthony 9:46pm here. Still no earthquakes or reports of anyone raptured.
Of course it happened, Scripture doesn’t lie. Just nobody was good enough to be ascended including the Rev that made the prediction(snigger).
It would appear rumors of the Earth’s demise were ‘somewhat’ exaggerated 🙂
I think the rapture model must have some bad input data. 9:36 PM PST and nothing bad has happened (except I spilled my drink).
You know what they say Lucia… if dogs (pets) don’t go to heaven, when I die I want to go where they went!
im gunna ask for his code and data
Good job it was a false alarm. Those people waiting for December 21st 2012 – (or whenever it is the world is supposed to end again) – they must have been pretty worried.
Love that picture, Lucia, very evocative.
Over here on the other side of the pond, we have the earthquakes/volcanoes by the usual suspects, so hey, maybe it’s localised?
I’m having some trouble working out what to say to the believers since it hasn’t come to pass.
Bit insensitive to say, ‘Don’t worry, it’s not the end of the world…’?
A test for the pervasiveness of this particular madness might be to look for a drop-off in bill payments up to the 21st and a brief surge afterwards. of course to be audited by CA, Cataclysm Audit
BarryW:
That’s my take. 😉
There are Christian groups that think that the number of people who will be saved is preordained and that you are preordained at birth to be saved or damned.
Guess we get the fiery pit. Thought this was apropos:
Where do bad folks go when they die?
Kim–
I also don’t want to go to heaven if pets can’t go.
Lucia, you sound more like an agnostic whene’r these subjects arise.
Andrew
I wrote something up a while back in a moment of levity. Maybe some of you guys will get a laugh from it:
A lot of people think the Rapture is a big deal. It isn’t, and I’ll explain why.
The first thing to do in any discussion is to make sure everyone holds the same basic assumptions. This a hypothetical discussion, and for it, let’s assume the Christian God exists as the Bible states. In addition, we need to accept three things. First, left to it’s own devices, the human race would eventually die out. If nothing else, the sun won’t last forever. Second, the Rapture will come before the human race has died out. Is there really a point if it comes later than that? Finally, we (humans) will never know when the Rapture will happen until it happens.
Unfortunately, these assumptions make the entire idea doomed from the start. It seems reasonable until you realize one thing. If there is a last moment for humans to exist, and we reach that moment without the Rapture happening, the Rapture must then happen at that moment. There is just no other time for it to happen. Of course, if we know it must happen then, we know it cannot happen then (remember the final assumption). This means the Rapture cannot happen at the final moment of humankind’s natural existence.
Of course, that’s just one instant. There are an infinite number of instances, so why should it matter if we can rule out one? The reason is simple. The exact same process used to rule out one moment can be used to rule out more moments. If the Rapture cannot come at the absolute final moment, we know the latest it can come is the moment before the final moment. If we reach that point, we know the Rapture must happen then. Of course, this means it cannot happen. The moment before the last moment is ruled out too.
This process can be repeated indefinitely. Eventually, we run out of moments in which the Rapture can happen. Reductio ad absurdum, one of our assumptions must be wrong. Obviously we cannot discuss the Rapture if we assume God does not exist, so that assumption must stay. Humans dying out is inevitable, so that assumption must be kept as well. The Bible is quite clear about humans not knowing when the Rapture will happen, so that leaves only one possibility.
The Rapture cannot happen while humans are still alive. There seems to be no point to having the Rapture after all humans are dead, but there is also no other possibility. God will send his son to walk the Earth once again, and Jesus will probably say, “Uh… Sorry I’m late?”
In Oskar Blues in Lyons, Colorado just before 6:00 pm, some patrons started a countdown, and then raised a glass to Rapture. Wonderful.
Brandon Shollenberger
Good try. However may I encourage you to first learn more. (i.e., Argumentum ad Ignorantiam with illogical jumps.) See Jesus’ predictions above. (PS Anyone saying he knows when it will happen hasn’t got a clue.)
There are several “calls” before the curtain rises on “the new beginning”. e.g.,
Thessalonians 4:16-17a (commonly called the “rapture”)
Revelation 11:11-12 NIV
(I haven’t seen this yet.)
The “end of the beginning” will occur later as John describes:
Revelation 20:11-13
Then the curtain rises on the new creation:
Revelation 21:1-4 NIV
kim & lucia
Re: pets – no information – except that it will be better than what we have now.
For another perspective, see C.S. Lewis, The Last Battle Ch 16
Roy Weiler
Re “rumors of the Earth’s demise were ‘somewhat’ exaggerated.
Jesus agreed with you on “rumors”:
Matthew 24:23-24 NIV
When Jesus returns, it will be sudden, unexpected, obvious and recognized worldwide.
See Matthew 24:29-31
Compare that to the certain prognosis for every person and for the earth.
lucia
Enjoy the wine.
I look forward to better in eternity:
Isaiah 25:6 NIV
See CS Lewis’ description of Aslan’s Table in The Dawn Treader
steven mosher (Comment #76155) May 22nd, 2011 at 2:30 am “im gunna ask for his code and data”
Best I could get: http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/graph?content=apocalypse%2Cend+of+the+world&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=0&smoothing=3
🙂
David L. Hagen, I can’t tell what you think I should learn more about. Nothing in my post was an argument from ignorance. In fact, it was basically just the unexpected hanging paradox applied to the Rapture. The only real difference is this case has a way out whereas the original paradox does not. Mostly, I just thought it was funny such a well-known paradox paralleled the Rapture topic so well.
Incidentally, I recommend against reading much into passages from Revelations. There is little agreement on what anything in it means amongst scholars.
Brandon Shollenberger
Its good to enjoy life and have a laugh.
(Though even in Middle Earth, news comes regarding outside events.)
Paradoxes are indeed thought provoking. e.g., God giving us free will.
By learn more, I was referring to the passages quoted. Whatever scholars think, I find Revelation is still the best source for insight into and planning for the future. It helps to read the “last” chapter for perspective on what goes before.
Nyg Only
Interesting. Apparently there is even greater interest in “Revelation”
Re: Brandon Shollenberger (Comment #76172)
I’ve heard it said that the author of Rev. may very well have been busily scribing his phantasmagorical images under the potent influence of a local species of mushrooms…
David L. Hagen
I find Revelation is still the best source for insight into and planning for the future
——
You use Revelations to plan your future?
Why I wish christianity was true is that dying is like walking out on a movie 1/3 of the way through. I want to see them unlock the full link between the quantum and the relativistic worlds, I want to know where plate tectonics and evolution take us, to be around when they begin exploring new solar systems, to be their when the get evidence of life beyond earth. To explore the galaxy, nay the whole cosmos. Think of what we have discovered over the past 30 years with the volcanos of Io, the rings of saturn and the seas of Europa. There is so much we will learn I will never know.
Such is the fate of a human life.
Brandon Writes : “Incidentally, I recommend against reading much into passages from Revelations. There is little agreement on what anything in it means amongst scholars.”
Well the book of the IPCC AR4, chapter 3 verse 2 is fairly clear about the whole thing.
“And the back radiation will rain down upon the land as crops wither and die and molluscs will have their shells torn asunder.”
No disagreements amongst the scholars on that! No siree.
dorlomin (Comment #76178)
May 22nd, 2011 at 5:03 pm
Why I wish christianity was true is that dying is like walking out on a movie 1/3 of the way through. I want to see them unlock the full link between the quantum and the relativistic worlds, I want to know where plate tectonics and evolution take us, to be around when they begin exploring new solar systems, to be their when the get evidence of life beyond earth. To explore the galaxy, nay the whole cosmos. Think of what we have discovered over the past 30 years with the volcanos of Io, the rings of saturn and the seas of Europa. There is so much we will learn I will never know.
Such is the fate of a human life.
____________
I feel your pain! We are on the cusp of such a huge increase in the understanding and exploration of the universe. It seems such a shame to need to die and miss it all. Although I will admit, the things I have seen in my lifetime are amazing!!
Send me to Mars now!
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/human-mars-mission.html
NASA is so tied up in people not dying, that is not the case of history. The truth is there are many who will make the sacrifice to move humankind forward.
To be taken lightly:
God: I will surprise you by coming back some day.
Brandon: Well if its a surprise, it can’t be the last day, as that wouldn’t be a surprise, by the same logic it can’t be any other day…
God: Comes back on Thursday
Brandon: is suprised.
For more fun google zeno’s paradox.
David L. Hagen, I’m actually pretty familiar with Revelations. It just means little to me. It seems like a Rorschach test, people see what they want to see.
Ian, that’s one off many proposed explanations. Another one is the book was written about modern (at the time) times, but it used imagery and the like to hide it’s messages. I suppose both could be true.
TimTheToolMan, I’ve long said non-religious beliefs are as insane and illogical as religious ones. That is, some are perfectly rational, most are irrational, and some are flat-out bonkers.
Michael Hauber, I highly recommend people read about Zeno’s paradoxes, even if they are somewhat repetitive. Personally, I’ve always enjoyed philosophy and logic, so I’m naturally attracted to paradoxes. In this case, I just couldn’t believe nobody else had ever (as far as I know) applied this particular paradox to the Rapture.
I still think my solution to it is pretty novel.
Roy Weiler
“You use Revelations to plan your future?”
—————————
Actually I use the Revelation from Jesus Christ . . .
One is given a choice of futures:
Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
There is a retirement program with a guaranteed “return on investment”.
By the way, prepare for a very large tsunami!
At least Muslims just want to kill a few people to get to heaven. Christians can’t seem to wait for everything to blow-up so they can hang out in cloudland with their select group of friends. Sick sick sick.
Revelations is a Jewish-Christian soup of warmed over Old Testament themes from the time of the destruction of the Temple (ie. Nero Caesar = 666 in the gematria numbering system).
……For obvious reasons, this one comes to my mind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hJQ18S6aag
Perhaps Mr Hagen could envison a role?
Cassanders
In Cod we trust
It’s one day later, and I’ve finally sobered up. The despair, and the hope, are gone.
I heard a dog barking and the internet is still working. What will UAH amsu temps channel 5 have to say?
comparisons 😉 !
Brendan O’Neill editor of Spiked, writing in his Telegraph blog.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100088694/green-predictions-of-end-times-are-just-as-demented-as-christian-ones-so-why-are-they-treated-more-seriously/
“The really weird thing about Camping and his 21 May movement is how outdated it seems. Because in recent years, end-of-the-worldism has been well and truly secularised. Doomsday is no longer the property of the religious – it has been stolen and updated and dolled up as “science†by an army of misanthropic greens. Environmentalist writer Mark Lynas says humanity’s “tipping point†is in 2015. “We have 18 months to stop climate change disasterâ€, said Prince Charles in May 2008. And yet November 2009 came and went without even a murmur of climatic catastrophe, just as surely as this Saturday will pass without Jesus arriving on a stead to blast us with lightning. Greens are as consistently wrong as hot-headed God-botherers in their predictions of End Times: in 1990, the founder of the doomsday porn mag The Ecologist, Edward Goldsmith, wrote a book titled 5,000 Days to Save the Planet. Does anyone remember the planet dying in 2003? Me neither.”
Brandon Shollenberger (Comment #76183) “I still think my solution to it is pretty novel.”
http://www.amazon.com/Unexpected-Hanging-Other-Mathematical-Diversions/dp/0226282562
ad (Comment #76187) May 22nd, 2011 at 11:24 pm
As I understand it Al Mahdi and Jesus come back to fight Dajjal and convert everyone in the world to being a Muslim in Sunni eschatology. Shia reckon the 12th Imam returns as well to join in the world conquering festivities. They have their own version of the tribulation and the rule of satan.
David L Hagen,
I was on my way heavenwards when I suddenly remembered various important things I still had to do back here on earth.
I’m glad you have your faith and that it sustains you so well. I’m not so sure you should try and project your faith onto others however.
Dave Andrews
I hope you enjoyed your short “rise and shine.” You might find fascinating CS Lewis’ insights into other’s experiences in The Great Divorce .
I trust you uphold my freedom to express myself just as you express yourself. Each person has to make their own decisions on the revelation they are given. “God has no grandchildren”.
Actually I use the Revelation from Jesus Christ . . .
One is given a choice of futures:
Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
There is a retirement program with a guaranteed “return on investmentâ€.
My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.
By the way, prepare for a very large tsunami!
From your link:
8 The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood,
______
And you believe this somehow relates to the Tsunami in Japan?
As a curiosity, which third of the “sea turned into blood”?? And further, which “huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea”?
Just trying to get my bearings here.
Roy
Roy Weiler
Very large tsunami:
Apologies for the confusion. The full link is Revelation 8:8-9
Any tsunami that destroys 33% of the ships will likely be a tad bit larger than the Japan tsunami!
A blazing “mountain” thrown into the sea sounds to me like a large asteroid strike. See the tsunami simulation for asteroid 1950DA striking in 2880.
That will likely cause more damage than Katrina!
(PS That appears to be a Torino Impact Hazard Class 9 event:
)
Intense solar global warming
If literally fulfilled, there will likely be an intense solar “global warming” far greater than any predicted “anthropogenic global warming”. See: Revelation 16:7-9
With the solar cycles approaching more than 100 year lows, this suggests that the following cycles may be more intense than the late 20th century solar cycles.
It will be interesting to see how well global warming models improve their prediction capabilities – and distinguish between natural and anthropogenic causes.
dorlomin
re 12th imam
Joel Rosenberg weaves his latest page turner novel around The Twelfth Imam
ad
“sick” appears to be the general description calling for a doctor.
Rev. Camping feels terrible about the world not being destroyed on schedule. He promises it will happen in October, and apologizes for being 5 months off in his prediction.
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/world/51870598-68/camping-radio-million-months.html.csp
Give the guy a break. Forecasting isn’t easy.
Max_OK–
October? That should give me time to offer to take care of raptured people’s pets, dispose of their belongings etc– all for a modest fee. Or is this end a true end for everyone and not just a day when the elect are sucked up into heaven while the rest of us stay here on earth?
@David L Hagen
So your god (…by proxy :Jesus) demonstrated a very touching compassion in Matthew 14:14, but are prepared to roast large parts of humanity at a later (the final) stage!!?
Compassion, my foot!
I can reccomend this:
http://bookshop.blackwell.co.uk/jsp/id/Believing_Bullshit/9781616144111
to interested readers who are puzzeled by the tunnel-vision and the glaring incoherence of Hagen and his pseudo-rational and inhumane religious companions.
Cassanders
“Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant
without having come by their ignorance the hard way.”
Kurt Vonnegut (Cat’s Cradle)
The end of the “ecological” world seems bad for everyone, no-one gets to go to a better place. In the evolving development of environmentalism as religion, their row is still short a few ducks.
May? October? Easy mistake to make.
Max_OK
“Forecasting isn’t easy.”
Especially when the timing is unknowable!
Matthew 24:36
Why would God care about timezones?
Surely the “6pm” referred to must be the midpoint between noon and midnight, measured by the sun, at wherever you happen to be on Earth, not something measured by a clock set to some arbitrary zone?
So why did the loony in Time Square who was on the news look crestfallen as precisely 6pm by the big local clocks?
steveta_uk (Comment #76243)
Donno..
But loonies have the useful capacity to make the rest of us seem relatively sane.
Re: Roy Weiler (Comment #76180)
After over 30 years of being active in theoretical physics research, I have come to think that scientific knowledge is like a fractal: no matter how deep you go (zoom in), there is still more to see, and the landscape to be explored is always just as rich, with no end in sight.
It’s not that you do not advance, but that the horizon keeps receding.
In Christian terms, I’d call this God’s way to make sure that each generation has a chance to make an important contribution, without in any way diminishing the possibilities, or the sense of wonder, for the next generation; a neat trick, when you think about it. (In Vulcan terms, I’d call it IDIC.)
Either way, I’m happy with it. I feel I have understood what has been given to me to understand in my lifetime. It may just be an infinitesimal corner of the universe, but it is a lovely one.
*Big* C.S. Lewis fan here. But, if you want to know what/who inspired Lewis, check out The Everlasting Man by G. K. Chesterton. I recommend it.
Andrew
julio (Comment #76245)
May 24th, 2011 at 9:51 am
Re: Roy Weiler (Comment #76180)
After over 30 years of being active in theoretical physics research, I have come to think that scientific knowledge is like a fractal: no matter how deep you go (zoom in), there is still more to see, and the landscape to be explored is always just as rich, with no end in sight.
It’s not that you do not advance, but that the horizon keeps receding.
In Christian terms, I’d call this God’s way to make sure that each generation has a chance to make an important contribution, without in any way diminishing the possibilities, or the sense of wonder, for the next generation; a neat trick, when you think about it. (In Vulcan terms, I’d call it IDIC.)
Either way, I’m happy with it. I feel I have understood what has been given to me to understand in my lifetime. It may just be an infinitesimal corner of the universe, but it is a lovely one.
______
And yet completely, incomplete.
A very succinct graphic(sic) representation of the rather modest difference between the whaco Mr. Camping and “mainstream christians” is here :
http://forthesakeofscience.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/harold-the-christian.jpg
Enjoy 🙂
Cassanders
“Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant
without having come by their ignorance the hard way.”
Kurt Vonnegut (Cat’s Cradle)
Cassanders,
You forgot the part of circle that intersects with Warmers.
“We can pretend to control the temperature of the earth by pretending we are controlling the amount of C02 in the atmosphere.” -Warmers
Andrew
@Andrew_KY
If I were to “improve” the conceptual mapping/model by including warmers, I would probably have to look at another issue.
Anyway, the ironic zest of the graph would be lost. No fun then.
Cassanders
In Cod we trust
Now if we only scrutinize the prophets of climate doom as critically as this ‘Rev.’ is deservedly scrutinized……