Stay safe! No Eyes to the Sky celebration this year. 🙁
102 thoughts on “Happy Fourth of July!”
The New York Times has published transcripts of the bodycam audio from the officers involved in George Floyd’s death.
He resisted getting in the police car, saying he was claustrophobic, and the police eventually decided to call EMS.
Yep. Yet another thing to damn Chauvin for.
We already knew he resisted getting in the car and said he was claustrophobic. So that’s not new. But it’s even more reprehensible of Chauvin to kneel on his neck until he died if he knew Floyd needed EMS help.
lucia (Comment #187535): “But it’s even more reprehensible of Chauvin to kneel on his neck until he died if he knew Floyd needed EMS help.”
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That is almost exactly backwards. The officers reasonably believed that Floyd was in the throes of excited delirium and all evidence points to that assessment being correct. In such causes, Minneapolis Police Department policy is to hold the suspect down on the ground until EMS arrives to administer ketamine. So far, there is no evidence that Chauvin acted contrary to policy.
In all probability, it was drug induced excited delirium that killed Floyd, not the cops.
Did Chauvin kneel on Floyd’s neck? If so, why could he raise his head (as seen on video). Floyd didn’t die from asphyxiation. I think Chauvin will say he was using his knee to prevent Floyd from getting up – but he wasn’t kneeling on him (i.e. putting his weight on his neck). I guess we will learn more about this issue at trial.
I think the excited delirium stuff will be a major factor in this case. Did the police follow the white paper procedure for handling excited delirium? Were the cops supposed to get Chauvin to the ground and hold his arms and legs? Here is an article from the cop point of view (with a link to the white paper):
Here is a quote from the white paper cited in the above article:
“In subjects who do not respond to verbal calming
and de-escalation techniques, control measures are
a prerequisite for medical assessment and intervention. When necessary, this should be accomplished
as rapidly and safely as possible. Recent research
indicates that physical struggle is a much greater
contributor to catecholamine surge and metabolic
acidosis than other causes of exertion or noxious
stimuli. Since these parameters are thought to contribute to poor outcomes in ExDS, the specific physical control methods employed should optimally minimize the time spent struggling, while safely
achieving physical control. The use of multiple personnel with training in safe physical control measures is encouraged.
After adequate physical control is achieved, medical
assessment and treatment should be immediately
initiated. Indeed, because death might occur suddenly, EMS should ideally be present and prepared
to resuscitate before definitive LEO control measures are initiated.”
Was their control safe? Well that is up for debate (obviously). I think there is an argument it was. Yes, Floyd died while under physical control – but he was on drugs and died from heart failure, not from lack of blood to the brain or asphyxiation.
The cops had called for EMS and were keeping physical control until they arrived. So were they following procedure? Well ideally EMS should have been there when they took control – but ideal conditions are pretty rare in the real world. I really doubt either 2nd or 3rd degree murder charges are going to stick against any of the 4 officers. Intent to kill – I don’t think so. Killing during a felony – I don’t think so. That seems like overcharging to me.
In fact, I really question whether this will be found to be manslaughter – because were the officers really engaged in extreme reckless disregard for life?
I also read something (which I cannot find unfortunately) which indicated it was even possible that Floyd threw himself on the ground as part of his resistance to being put into the car – I wonder if that turns out to be true if that will matter?
So there are a whole bunch of facts which may be introduced in the defense of the officers which make this situation not quite as clear cut as the video seems to show.
I think we should get ready for another riot at the conclusion of the trial – because based on what I read I am not sure the jury will convict on any of the charges, even against Chauvin (the most experienced officer).
By the way – I live in Minnesota, which is why I have been reading so much about this case.
RickA,
I watched the video. There was clearly a great deal of pressure on Floyd’s neck, and before losing consciousness Floyd said multiple times that he couldn’t breath. At the trial, the prosecution will lay out Chauvin’s history of multiple complaints of excessive force. The jury will watch the video, and conclude, like most people, that Chauvin is a sociopathic monster.
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I will be shocked if Chauvin does not go to jail for a very long time. Unless held in solitary, or sent to a prison that houses only non-violent offenders, I will be shocked if he survives very long once he gets there.
MikeM,
If what Chauvin actually did did in its totality is acting according to policy, it means there is something very wrong with policy. That’s an even bigger problem.
I imagine there are other overlapping policies such as “stop kneeling on people after they pass out”, or “try to determine if a person is dying if they stop responding”. A strict isolated reading of that policy might get charges reduced to something less than murder, but I doubt it. The video is going to sway the jury, his best hope is a hung jury, in which case this will be retried as many times as it takes.
SteveF (Comment #187539): “before losing consciousness Floyd said multiple times that he couldn’t breath.”
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That is a common consequence of excited delirium. It seems that there is little that can be done until the EMT’s arrive, except that maybe it helps to immobilize the patient.
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SteveF: “At the trial, the prosecution will lay out Chauvin’s history of multiple complaints of excessive force.”
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Any police officer who does his job will accumulate such complaints. It turns out that criminals don’t like being arrested.
There are reports that Chauvin’s service record is actually exemplary.
——
lucia: “If what Chauvin actually did did in its totality is acting according to policy, it means there is something very wrong with policy.”
That may or may not be true. You are not qualified to judge that. Neither am I.
———
Tom Scharf (Comment #187542),
You seem to be looking at this from the point of view of common sense. But common sense is entirely irrelevant when dealing with excited delirium.
SteveF,
The medium article has this quote from the original government complaint against Chauvin.
—
Mr. Floyd stiffened up, fell to the ground, and told the officers he was claustrophobic […] Mr. Floyd did not voluntarily get in the car and struggled with the officers by intentionally falling down, saying he was not going in the car, and refusing to stand still […] While standing outside the car, Mr. Floyd began saying and repeating that he could not breathe.
—
This happened *before* Chauvin was kneeling on him. The horror from the video is that Chauvin is kneeling on the neck of someone who can’t breathe — but if Floyd is complaining that he can’t breathe *before* he’s restrained, Floyd’s complaint is not proof that the restraint itself was causing breathing difficulties. For the same reason, Chauvin’s unconsciousness is not proof that Chauvin was applying more force than he should have. The medium article calculates the median use of force expected from the double knee position to be 45 pounds and claims that “45 lbs is definitively insufficient to restrict breathing or blood-flow in the neck.” Chauvin *could* have been applying more force than that, but can that be determined from the video? Maybe the medical examiner can get an idea from bruising?
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Do we know how many of the previous complaints against Chauvin were specifically about excessive violence? The medium article states only one complaint was sustained, asking a woman to exit the car when exceeding the speed limit by ten MPH. Unless there’s more to that story, that’s not an excessive violence complaint.
Lucia,
It’s quite possible that there’s something very wrong with the policy, and that was the take of the medium article as well. I quote:
—
Let’s be clear: the actions of Chauvin and the other officers were absolutely wrong. But they were also in line with MPD rules and procedures for the condition which they determined was George Floyd was suffering from. An act that would normally be considered a clear and heinous abuse of force, such as a knee-to-neck restraint on a suspect suffering from pulmonary distress, can be legitimatized if there are overriding concerns not known to bystanders but known to the officers. In the case of George Floyd, the overriding concern was that he was suffering from ExDS, given a number of relevant facts known to the officers. This was not known to the bystanders, who only saw a man with pulmonary distress pinned down with a knee on his neck. While the officers may still be found guilty of manslaughter, the probability of a guilty verdict for the murder charge is low, and the public should be aware of this well in advance of the verdict.
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While we should pursue justice for George Floyd, we should be absolutely sure that we are pursuing justice against his real killers. A careful examination of the evidence points to the procedures and rules of the MPD, rather than the police officers following these procedures and rules, as the real killers of George Floyd. If anyone murdered George Floyd, it was the MPD and the local political establishment.
—
The article goes on to show how Chauvin’s behavior was permitted or recommended by MPD instructions on ExDS. But their dive into the details also shows that ExDS deaths can happen *regardless* of the kind of restraint, and that restraining a subject until EMS can arrive and medicate is the best you can do — if the authors want to put a murder charge on the policy-makers, I’d think there would be some evidence that the policy was likely to kill *and* there was clearly an alternative policy that would not put officers at risk. There’s nothing in the medium article that shows where the MPD *should* have known better, though perhaps exploring that was beyond the scope of the article. Two interesting quotes from the MPD-distributed white paper:
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“Given the irrational and potentially violent, dangerous, and lethal behavior of an ExDS subject, any LEO interaction with a person in this situation risks significant injury or death to either the LEO or the ExDS subject who has a potentially lethal medical syndrome. This already challenging situation has the potential for intense public scrutiny coupled with the expectation of a perfect outcome. Anything less creates a situation of potential public outrage. Unfortunately, this dangerous medical situation makes perfect outcomes difficult in many circumstances.”
—
“In those cases where a death occurs while in custody, there is the additional difficulty of separating any potential contribution of control measures from the underlying pathology. For example, was death due to the police control tool, or to positional asphyxia, or from ExDS, or from interplay of all these factors? Even in the situation where all caregivers agree that a patient is in an active delirious state, there is no proof of the most safe and effective control measure or therapy for what is most likely an extremely agitated patient.”
—-
What if those quotes are 100% correct? Is anyone guilty of murder?
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It’s also an interesting find that a University of Minnesota study that used MPD officers found no support for the existence of positional asphyxia as a contributor to death. The medium article argues that it was “probable” that Chauvin was aware of the study, but that assumes the 5% of officers involved would’ve spread information about it. It also calculates a 21% chance that one of the four officers would’ve been a participant, but as two of the officers were newbies, I’m not sure that’s correct either. Sadly there’s not a link to the study itself, only quotes from it.
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One thing that’s not addressed in the medium article at all is whether the restraint for ExDS should be relaxed when the subject becomes unconscious.
MikeM
That may or may not be true. You are not qualified to judge that. Neither am I.
Wrong.
Juries will judge this. I am qualified to be on a jury. So are you.
Dale,
I’m not sure where I stand on your larger point, but
45 lbs is definitively insufficient to restrict breathing or blood-flow in the neck.
I doubt this. 45 lbs is a heck of a lot of pressure. Imagine holding a bag full of ten (10) 2-liter bottles of soda, that’s approximately 45 lbs. I’m pretty sure it’s a matter of the application of that force that’s the deterministic factor, but I believe 45 lbs of force is more than plenty to choke somebody out or strangulate them.
[Edit: let me put it another way. I’m pretty sure from practicing with him that my 13 year old black belt kid could choke me out, assuming he could hold on / assuming I couldn’t dislodge him. He’s pretty scrawny; weighs all of about 100 pounds. I’m almost certain he’s not putting 45 lbs of pressure on my neck when he’s got me.]
lucia,
Yes, we are all theoretically potential jurors, but we are not seeing evidence as would be presented to a jury by prosecution and defense. So reaching a conclusion before a trial would actually disqualify a potential juror.
Floyd has been referred to as a healthy young man. If an enlarged heart and 75% restriction of coronary arteries is consistent with being a healthy young man, no wonder health care in the US is so expensive. And that’s not to mention all the drugs that were found in his system: fentanyl, methamphetamine, marijuana and caffeine.
mark bofill (Comment #187547): “I doubt this. 45 lbs is a heck of a lot of pressure.”
That was my reaction when I saw that in the article. But presumably, the author was using a source more authoritative than our uninformed guesses.
From Wikipedia:
Estimates have been made that significant occlusion of the carotid arteries and jugular veins occurs with a pressure of around 3.4 N/cm2 (4.9 psi), while the trachea demands six times more at approximately 22 N/cm2 (32 psi).
So a well focused 45 lbs could definitely do the job, but a knee is not all that well focused. And Chauvin’s knee was not on Floyd’s windpipe or jugular.
Mark Bofill,
The claim made by the article was specifically in the context of a double knee prone restraint. Pressure to the *front* of the neck is a different story. If I put my hand to the front of my neck and press, not as hard as I possibly could, I can certainly feel constricted breathing. If I put my hand to the back of my neck and press as hard as I can, I feel no breathing constriction at all. I’ve no experience with strangulation, but my impression from tv and movies is that it involves squeezing the front of the neck.
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Now if you press down hard enough on the back of the neck, I would guess you could press the front of the neck into something hard and induce strangulation that way. I wouldn’t expect to be able to talk if that level of pressure is applied, though.
lucia (Comment #187545): “Juries will judge this. I am qualified to be on a jury. So are you.”
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Juries will make their judgements after being presented with information that you or I do not have.
And juries often judge things that they are not qualified to judge.
You might be excused for not knowing this, as this message hasn’t been broadcast very widely.
. https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/07/09/889618702/police-viewed-less-favorably-but-few-want-to-defund-them-survey-finds
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“On a point advocated by many of the protesters, only a quarter of those surveyed (25%) said that funding for the police should be decreased. Seventy-three percent said they thought funding for the police should either stay about the same (42%), be increased a little (20%) or a lot (11%).”
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More people want to increase funding than decrease funding. Now back to your original programming …
But now liberals are being persecuted and deplatformed. Now liberals thinking over the mistakes they’ve made in the past. And they still don’t get how messed up it is to collect 153 signatures in support of free speech and viewpoint diversity but to exclude conservatives from that as well.
Ignore the title, at least until you get to the end.
Mike M.,
And juries often judge things that they are not qualified to judge.
See, for example, glyphosate causing non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma and talcum powder causing ovarian cancer. The latter would be funny if you weren’t a plaintiff’s attorney trying to get rich and the money involved weren’t so substantial. And that’s not to mention clearly biased judges in at least some of those cases.
MikeM
And juries often judge things that they are not qualified to judge.
I suspect you are not qualified to judge what juries are qualified to judge. 🙂
Chauvin will go to jail, for a really long time… assuming he survives there once he arrives (see Whitey Bulger).
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I suspect in the future other police officers will think better of kneeling on people’s necks until they are unconscious.
SteveF (Comment #187561); “Chauvin will go to jail, for a really long time”
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I see that the lynch mob mentality is alive and well.
Mark
Note: They mean psi, not pounds. This is probably why in mystery series we see people exerting the force using a rope there by achieving high pressure with little force.
It takes only 4 pounds of pressure to block the jugular veins, 11 pounds of pressure to block the carotid arteries, and 33 pounds of pressure to block the trachea (air flow).
I would imagine the pressure exerted on the trachea by kneeling could be highly variable depending on whether the force was applied by the cop’s shin, a fleshy part of his leg, and the head position of the person whose neck is being kneeled on. The median value from some study is beside the point if the amount in a specific instance is different.
One of the other cops present says he ask whether Chauvin shouldn’t turn Floyd. This by itself suggests a reasonable cop would consider doing something different.
Lucia,
The median value from some study is beside the point if the amount in a specific instance is different.
I very much agree. I think all of the talk about how Chauvin’s knee was positioned on Floyd’s neck fails [to grasp] how difficult it can be to apply techniques properly when using one’s hands and arms, where people have much finer control than they do over the weight and exact positioning of their knees.
In my opinion, kneeling on the neck is too difficult a technique to control and should be avoided unless killing the controlled person is considered an acceptable outcome to the situation, because it seems like it’s definitely a possible outcome within the margin of human error in applying such a technique.
SteveF:
“I suspect in the future other police officers will think better of kneeling on people’s necks until they are unconscious.”
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I suspect they’ll avoid kneeling on necks entirely. They may abandon the prone position completely. They may in fact abandon trying to restrain suspected ExDS *at all*, since they may very well die no matter how you are trying to restrain them — and if it happens to you, you could go to jail. For murder. This may not be a net improvement for society.
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The purpose of the neck restraint is supposed to be restraint, not to render the suspect/victim unconscious. The assumption from the video is that Floyd couldn’t breathe *because* he was being kneeled on, but we now know he claimed he couldn’t breathe before he was ever even prone.
Lucia,
The exchange about moving position was in the medium article:
–from government complaint–
Lane asked, “should we roll him on his side?†and the defendant said, “No, staying put where we got him.†Officer Lane said, “I am worried about excited delirium or whatever.†The defendant said, “That’s why we have him on his stomach.â€
–medium article–
This excerpt is of twofold importance. First, it demonstrates that two officers suspected excited delirium. Second, it demonstrates that Chauvin was restraining Floyd in this position because he suspected excited delirium (“that’s why we have him on his stomachâ€).
—
I agree the median value of the pressure can’t be assumed to be the force that Chauvin actually used, and if he used excessive pressure on the neck so as to pressure the trachea and render Floyd unconscious that would certainly seem to go well beyond MPD policy. But pressure on the back of the neck doesn’t automatically translate to *any* pressure on the trachea, let alone 33 pounds worth.
DaleS,
Importance you seem to have missed: It shows that another cop thought Floyd should be on his side and aired that. Chauvin persisted in his preference despite another cops concern that Floyd might be experiencing “whatever” (among other things.)
I haven’t claimed anything about the pressure on the neck “automatically” translating into pressure on the neck. Merely it can. And the guy suffocated.
The assumption from the video is that Floyd couldn’t breathe *because* he was being kneeled on, but we now know he claimed he couldn’t breathe before he was ever even prone.
That’s not the assumptoin from the video. The assumption from the video is that Chauvin continued to kneel on his neck despite Floyd being unable to breath and despite Chauvin knowing full well Floyd was having difficulty breathing. That body cam makes this fact even clearer.
I suspect they’ll avoid kneeling on necks entirely.
Good. The practice seems to be banned in most police departments with Minn an exception. It’s especially not considered good practice when the person being arrested is already restrained and in handcuffs and doesn’t present an immediate danger– which Floyd certainly did not when on the ground in hand cuffs.
Ending the dodgy practice would be a good thing.
Dale S,
“This may not be a net improvement for society.”
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Consider for a moment the cost to the USA of Chauvin’s idiotic choice of restraining technique… many billions of dollars, many lives lost, many injuries, terrible social disruption, the normalization of blatantly criminal behavior, justification for the lunatic left to run rampant, and the increased likelihood that a demented old man will assume the presidency in January 2021… and turn the reins of power over to a bunch of crazy lefties.
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I am certain that completely stopping all similar police restrains will be a HUGE net improvement for society. The police everywhere have to understand: don’t ever do this, or anything remotely similar.
MikeM,
“I see that the lynch mob mentality is alive and well.”
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I believe you are completely mistaken. There is no lynching here. A jury will send him to prison, not a lynch mob. If you can’t see from the video that the guy is obviously a violent sociopath, then there is nothing I can say that will make any difference.
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But he is now sitting in jail, and you can be certain that is where he will stay for a very, very long time.
I don’t go quite as far as Steve. I don’t know that Chauvin was a sociopath. It’s possible Chauvin was trained to think that technique was safer than I think it actually is. It might have just been a mistake.
But. A suspect already in handcuffs got killed, and it certainly looks as if the knee to the neck could have been the cause. I don’t think he should skate for that.
lucia (Comment #187570): “It shows that another cop thought Floyd should be on his side and aired that.”
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That is of no value whatever. So a rookie cop was not sure of what to do; that does not mean that the veteran was wrong.
Now if MPD policy says to put him on his side, that is an issue. But it seems that was not policy.
——
lucia: “Chauvin persisted in his preference despite another cops concern that Floyd might be experiencing “whatever†(among other things.)”
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You have no evidence for that. It appears that Chauvin was concerned about the same thing as the rookie and at least thought he was following procedure.
——-
lucia: “And the guy suffocated.”
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No, he died of a heart attack.
——-
lucia: “It’s especially not considered good practice when the person being arrested is already restrained and in handcuffs and doesn’t present an immediate danger– which Floyd certainly did not when on the ground in hand cuffs.”
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That is irrelevant. What is relevant is how to handle a suspect in the throes of excited delirium. *All* choices have a high probability of ending in death. The procedure used may well lie within the rage of accepted procedures. If it was the procedure used by the MPD, then Chauvin did nothing wrong.
SteveF (Comment #187571): “Consider for a moment the cost to the USA of Chauvin’s idiotic choice of restraining technique”
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No, I will not consider that. It is irrelevant unless it was against procedure.
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I don’t want cops to worry about the possible PR consequences of their actions. That can only result in ineffective and inconsistent policing. I want them to do their job, in accordance with procedure.
mark bofill (Comment #187575): “it certainly looks as if the knee to the neck could have been the cause. I don’t think he should skate for that.”
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*IF* it was the cause and *IF* it was not procedure. Both are in doubt.
Not to pick nits, but I thought George Floyd died of cardiac arrest. Cardiac arrest can be caused by suffocation.
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[Edit: IF it was the cause, yes. If it was procedural… I’m not sure how much that ought to mitigate. Is there some clear line between that idea and the ‘I was just following orders’ defense? I’m not sure off the top of my head.]
At some point, there’s a common sense line. We wouldn’t excuse a cop who shot and killed a suspect completely unprovoked even if there *was* some crackbrained procedure he was following. At least I wouldn’t.
It might be that this case is close enough to the line to cut the guy some slack. But there has to be a penalty, even if he was following procedure, if the knee to the neck was the cause of death: he killed a handcuffed suspect who was no threat. People can’t kill people and say ‘oh, bad procedure’ and have that be OK, that’s not OK.
mark bofill,
One of the problems with the Warren Court’s creation of qualified immunity is that saying ‘oh, bad procedure’ is a defense.
Looking at the county autopsy report, it was not at all clear to me that Chauvin was primarily responsible for Floyd’s death. There didn’t appear to be physical evidence that blood flow to the brain was restricted. There also didn’t appear to be damage to the trachea and larynx. Shortness of breath, i.e. “I can’t breathe” is a symptom of a heart attack. The fact that he was actually able to say “I can’t breathe” could mean that he was already having a heart attack before he went to the ground, not that his breathing was restricted. But I’m not a pathologist or medical examiner.
mark bofill,
If it can be shown that Chauvin *killed* a handcuffed suspect who was no threat, then he certainly won’t skate. But the assumption that Floyd died only because Chauvin kneeled on him may not actually be true! And that’s really the crux of the issue — if Floyd *didn’t* suffocate and there’s no evidence of constricted airflow, Chauvin didn’t kill Floyd, let alone intend to kill him.
Dale S,
I am pretty sure the jury will not agree with you. The video is going to send Chauvin to prison. It will not matter what other evidence is produced; people do not accept that kind of police behavior, and never will.
Dale S,
I am pretty sure the jury will not agree with you. The video is going to send Chauvin to prison. It will not matter what other evidence is produced; people do not accept that kind of police behavior, and never will.
Dale , ok.
DeWitt, thanks. As usual I’m more concerned with what I think is right as opposed to legal. I think we ought to reconsider police qualified immunity.
(CNN)Experts hired by George Floyd’s family and the Hennepin County Medical Examiner have concluded his death was a homicide, but they differ on what caused it.
The independent autopsy says Floyd died of “asphyxiation from sustained pressure” when his neck and back were compressed by Minneapolis police officers during his arrest last week. The pressure cut off blood flow to his brain, that autopsy determined.
MIkeM
lucia: “Chauvin persisted in his preference despite another cops concern that Floyd might be experiencing “whatever†(among other things.)â€
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You have no evidence for that. It appears that Chauvin was concerned about the same thing as the rookie and at least thought he was following procedure.
Huh? Are you saying Chauvin didn’t elect to do the knee to the neck? Are you saying the cop didn’t suggest a change (rolling the guy over?) Are you saying Chauvin didn’t persist in the method Chauvin had picked to deal with Floyd?
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Chauvin is the one who diagnosed “whatever”, picked the method of dealing with “whatever” and did not change course when another cop brought up another option. I have no idea how you can even begin to suggest I have no evidence for that!
SteveF,
By saying the jury “will not agree with meâ€, are you arguing that *if* the jury believes that Floyd did not die of suffocation and did not have his airflow restricted by the neck restraint, they would *still* convict Chauvin of murder because they don’t like the way the video looked? And you’re OK with that outcome?
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The officer that gunned down Philando Castile was acquitted by a Minnesota jury of *manslaughter*. In that case there’s *no possibility* that the death was not a result of direct officer action. Even the officer who gunned down the unarmed Justine Damond without provocation was acquitted of second degree murder (third degree and manslaughter did stick).
Lucia,
The independent autopsy makes the medium article too, when discussing the very similar death of Donald Lewis (though in that case the victim was white and the kneeler was black):
—
The parallel to our current case does not end here. An official autopsy declared cause of death “sudden respiratory arrest following physical struggling restraint due to cocaine-induced excited delirium.†The legal team hired Dr. Michael Baden, who testified that Lewis died from “asphyxia caused by neck compression.†Baden is the same medical examiner who was hired by the George Floyd family, and made a similar finding. Baden is also the same medical examiner who was hired for Eric Garner, and declared death by “compression of the neckâ€. Baden is also the same medical examiner who was hired by the Brown family to examine Michael Brown, and Baden found that Brown died while surrendering, an assertion totally disproven by a DoJ investigation spearheaded by AG Eric Holder under Obama. Suffice it to say, Michael Baden has a very specific interest, and a very tenuous track record. The Court will be aware of this when weighing the autopsies.
Dales S,
I am saying juries weigh all kinds of evidence, and I am pretty sure they will weigh the visual evidence heavily, and based on that, Chauvin will go to prison. Do you honestly think he won’t? (not rhetorical)
DaleS,
The jury will also know the official autopsy is not necessarily independent of police department interests.
“sudden respiratory arrest following physical struggling restraint
In other words: He stopped breathing because a cop was restraining him by putting a knee on his neck.
Honestly not seeing how the cocain or delirum chages this in the official report: He suffocated because Chauvin’s knee was on his neck.
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Lucia,
It’s not impossible that he died of cardiac arrest due to anxiety about the situation. Floyd might have been high as a kite (I haven’t read conclusively either way) which could have made it worse, but even if he wasn’t, his speech in the transcript seems to indicate extreme anxiety.
I don’t think it’ s unreasonable to suspect that the knee on the neck had something to do with it, or even a lot to do with it. Personally I suspect you’re right; I put my money on the knee being a bigger contributing factor than the anxiety. But it’s not impossible that Floyd died of a cardiac arrest brought on by extreme panic.
I haven’t thought to register them. I suppose they were born in the USA, and so US citizens.
Oh– but they are only 4 years old. So they aren’t eligible to vote yet.
mark bofill,
On the Floyd thing: My focus isn’t so much on whether or not this was murder but whether this was right. That’s why my view is that things are even worse if Chauvin was following police procedure. Dying because of extreme panic brought on by a cop kneeling on your neck would still be a wrong on the part of the cop and even worse if it was “SOP”.
Lucia,
I don’t see how any reasonable person could argue with that. I agree.
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[Er, the Floyd thing. Not registering your cats to vote.]
Just a little context here about jury role, based on my experience in Ohio, which probably mirrors Minnesota. In Ohio, if an injury requires a medical explanation, the jury must be provided with expert medical testimony. The jury is not free to speculate on what may have caused Floyd’s death. There is an exception for obvious, simple injuries, (like a real hot poker causing blindness in an eye) but Ohio wouldn’t call this obvious or simple.
The autopsy evidence is unclear to me. Baden explained on tape how pressure on the back can restrict diaphragm movement and suffocate you, which makes sense to me. However, the official autopsy still does not find suffocation.
The official autopsy found this: “the Hennepin County Medical Examiner issued a press release on Monday stating Floyd’s death was a homicide caused by cardiopulmonary arrest due to police “subdual, restraint, and neck compression.” https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/national-international/family-autopsy-floyd-asphyxiated-sustained-pressure/2282015/
These are very different findings. One article I read said that Baden didn’t actually do an autopsy or view one. That could very well explain the differences.
Here is the wording of original autopsy report.
“”III. No life-threatening injuries identified
A. No facial, oral mucosal, or conjunctival petechiae
B. No injuries of anterior muscles of neck or laryngeal
structures
C. No scalp soft tissue, skull, or brain injuries
D. No chest wall soft tissue injuries, rib fractures (other
than a single rib fracture from CPR), vertebral column
injuries, or visceral injuries
E. Incision and subcutaneous dissection of posterior and
lateral neck, shoulders, back, flanks, and buttocks
negative for occult trauma.” https://www.lucianne.com/2020/06/05/michael_baden_did_not_perform_autopsybr_but_you_are_being_told_he_did_35802.html
lucia (Comment #187604): ” Dying because of extreme panic brought on by a cop kneeling on your neck would still be a wrong on the part of the cop and even worse if it was “SOPâ€.”
.
I agree, if that is what happened.
But it seems likely that is *not* what happened. Floyd probably died of excited delirium brought on by his drug use.
MikeM,
That’s not consistent with either autopsy report.
There were 800 deaths in the latest CDC daily numbers. However, CDC added more than 4000 people to the overall count. Someone went and checked, and found that these were mostly before May.
Lucia, no autopsy would diagnose excited delirium, as it is only considered real by a few medical fields.
The issue is that MPD says it is imperative to stop the person from struggling. Floyd may very well have been acting within procedure.
However, he will probably still be convicted, with the prosecution having an available fallback of going after him for not putting Floyd up once he was unconscious, as was done with Donald Lewis.
I missed the news that in April Mark Jacobson was ordered to pay legal fees to Clack and NAS for his defamation lawsuit after they published a critiques of one of his renewable energy papers.
MikeN,
Yep. I read about Mark Jacobson. I think the amount of money is to be determined, but he’s going to have to pay. And he already paid his own costs. Ah…. poor guy. 🙂
MikeN,
Thanks, I had not seen that ruling. Jacobson is not likely to ever pay anything, but it is nice he got ‘slapped’ down by the court. Even if he were forced to pay something, I am sure the lunatic green organizations will cover his cost, just as they very likely funded his suit in 2017.
SteveF,
I too suspect green organizations must have covered the cost of his suit. I think he claimed his legal fees were near $1million. That’s just way too much money to spend on what would at best be wounded pride.
lucia (Comment #187611): “That’s not consistent with either autopsy report.”
.
From what I understand, cardiac arrest while under the influence of high levels of fentanyl and methamphetamine is entirely consistent with excited delirium.
Fentanyl and methamphetamine is likely similar to the combination of heroin and cocaine that killed John Belushi. Methamphetamine is known to be cardiotoxic.
Methamphetamine intoxication causes various systemic complications like sympathetic over activity, agitation, seizure, stroke, rhabdomyolysis and cardiovascular collapse. Acute cardiac complications of methamphetamine like chest pain, hypertension, arrhythmias, aortic dissection, acute coronary syndrome, cardiomyopathy, and sudden cardiac death have been reported 4, 5. Chronic methamphetamine use is associated with coronary artery disease, chronic hypertension and cardiomyopathy 6.[my emphasis]
As I read the autopsy report, Floyd exhibited all the symptoms listed above for chronic methamphetamine use.
And in other news, Gary Larson (The Far Side) has been drawing again using a tablet computer rather than pen and ink.
Police have to have some “normally non-deadly” force options available. A problem arises if you ban tasers because they can be deadly in some instances then deadly force may be used more often. If the knee to the neck is banned, which seems reasonable, then a substitute must replace it. It is unclear what that might be.
Lucia,
my quote from the article was “sudden respiratory arrest following physical struggling restraint.”
.
You responded with:
“In other words: He stopped breathing because a cop was restraining him by putting a knee on his neck.”
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No, he stopped breathing, as the rest of the quote indicated, “due to cocaine-induced excited delirium.” This quote was about the parallel Donald Lewis case, where not only was he subject to knee restraint, he was also zip tied and a hobble prone restraint. According to the description of ExDS in the medium article, the sufferer continues to resist even when thoroughly incapacitated, even to the point of death. In Donald Lewis’ case he died prone. In Willard Truckenmiler’s case he died seated. In Roy Scott’s case he died on his side. And in all these cases it’s quite possible that each of them would have died in *any* restraint position, or possibly without any restraint at all. The MPD-circulated white paper says as much — the excited delirium sufferer may die no matter what you do, and there’s no demonstrated safe way (or best way) to restrain them until EMS can get there and (hopefully) make things better.
.
There’s a Judge’s order on the Lewis case here from the lawsuit: http://www.aele.org/law/2009all01/lewis-wpb.html
In his case, the officers reported a pulse after he stopped breathing (though they performed CPR, which seems odd to me). The medical examiner seemed wishy-washy about the restraint as a contributing factor, calling it a poorly understood phenomenon.
.
“You know, this isn’t the only time it’s ever happened. It happened before and it will happen again. It’s not going to matter whether the police restrain them or what type of restraint device or mechanism — I don’t know what the term is — that they use. It doesn’t matter if they use Tasers or they come up with a new device.”
“There’s something about the struggle, you know, whether that — that interacts and maybe just puts them over the edge to, you know, go into — at least in this case it appeared to be a respiratory arrest. But it could be a cardiac arrest or a cardiopulmonary arrest. Who the hell knows unless you got them all hooked up to the machines when this is all happening.”
.
I don’t find “who the hell knows” exactly reminiscent of Quincy…. This was his response if asked if the restraint alone could have caused the death:
“Well, if I thought the death was as a result of him being restrained, that’s what I would have called it. The way I phrased it is, again, I think probably it shows that I can’t completely rule it out, but at the same time that’s what was happening at the time, you know, that he became unresponsive.”
“So it’s being honest in the sense that this is happening. He’s being restrained and he suddenly becomes limp and unresponsive. I’m not sure that just restraining him was the cause of his death. If I did, I would have said that he died of either traumatic asphyxiation or suffocation or something like that. I think it’s a lot more complex than that, and I think it starts with his excited delirium.”
Baden dismisses this and claims that “[I]n my experience in looking at excited delirium cases . . . invariably, the person would have died without the excited delirium. It’s the physical forces that are involved that cause the death.” Baden diagnosed the cause of death as asphyxia caused by neck compression, but the judge also found his testimony equivocal. Without quoting Baden, this is how the judge summarized it:
.
“But Dr. Baden could not identify any of the officers’ actions in particular that might have led to Lewis’ death. Id. Dr. Baden also acknowledged that he could not tell from the evidence before him precisely when Lewis stopped breathing, or by what mechanism the officers’ actions might have caused Lewis to stop breathing.”
.
So strong claim — but no evidence? Now, in this case the judge *did* find that “a reasonable juror could find that the officers used constitutionally excessive force under the circumstances,” since he saw no purpose for the kneeling (knee/back restraint) after Lewis was handcuffed and “effectively immobilized”. (There was also additional restraint, and some manhandling of the legs, not present in Floyd’s case.) The decision went on the basis of qualified immunity, since it wasn’t sufficient that it could be considered constitutionally excessive in the absence of evidence that the *officer* would know that it’s constitutionally excessive.
.
“Plaintiff conceded at oral argument that there are no relevant cases with materially indistinguishable facts (or, for that matter, with facts even vaguely similar to the case at bar) holding that an officer’s knee on a detainee’s back, or the use of a hobble restraint, constitutes excessive force. The court’s own research has likewise revealed none. Thus, plaintiff is unable to overcome the officers’ qualified immunity defense with the first method described above.”
.
This seems disturbingly circular to me — if you can’t declare some technique excessive force without it previously being considered excessive force, how on earth does any technique ever pass this bar? This comment I thought was interesting:
—
“By contrast [to Mercado, a case where qualified immunity was overcome], in this case there is no allegation or evidence that Officer Shaw knew at any time that the force he used against Lewis could have led to his death.”
—
Now this surprises me, since this is on details very similar to the Floyd case, but the outrage against Chauvin is *driven* precisely by the idea that he knew the force he was using would lead to Floyd’s death. In this case, the victim actually died from stopping breathing, Shaw kneeled on his neck and back, and no one claimed that he knew it could lead to his death!
.
Lucia writes:
“Honestly not seeing how the cocain or delirum chages this in the official report: He suffocated because Chauvin’s knee was on his neck.”
.
That’s not Floyd’s official report. It was *Lewis* who had cocaine and stopped breathing (not suffocation). Floyd died of cardiopulmonary arrest — his heart stopped. And he had two heart diseases and three drugs in him (not cocaine), include a Fentanyl level higher than the median in fatal NH overdoses of that drug.
.
If Floyd *had* suffocated, and suffocated only because Chauvin’s knee was on his neck, this would be a slamdunk case. That’s what the bystanders thought, and why not — Floyd is saying he can’t breathe while an officer is kneeling on his neck! But Floyd was saying he couldn’t breathe *before* he was on the ground, and likely was already in distress when the cops were called. (The 911 transcript says he’s not “acting right”).
Here’s a case from yesterday showing why dashcams and bodycams can quickly resolve a situation. Officer shooting in Detroit, the usual misinformation follows, protests, stuff thrown at police etc. https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2020/07/10/detroit-police-fatal-shooting-block-party/5415913002/
.
“We hear one thing from the police, and another thing from the community. The community told us that the police pulled up, told [him] to get on the ground. He put his hands up, and … shot him in the back of the head,†the man, Asar Amenra, told the Detroit Free Press.”
.
Immediate release of video, end of story. Note during the slow-mo that the orange shirt guy shoots at policeman’s head from 3 feet away (and misses). This is police reality sometimes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjPO1sGN7OQ
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Press conference a day later. https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=590857098473357
Dale S,
You should give it a rest. Chauvin is going to jail. You’re not going to change that, no matter how many very long comments you write.
I think there are two different questions. One is whether Chauvin deserves to go to prison and the other is whether the jury will convict. They ought to have the same answer, but all four permutations are possible.
It is quite possible that Chauvin is not guilty. We can not say if he is or isn’t based on the information available.
It is certainly possible that the jury will find Chauvin guilty, even if only based on the emotional impact of the video. But juries are extremely reluctant to send cops to prison. So it would be foolish to claim to know the outcome.
Mike M,
“But juries are extremely reluctant to send cops to prison. So it would be foolish to claim to know the outcome.”
.
The guy is a sociopath. He is going to prison. You want a friendly bet? Donation to your charity or mine.
SteveF,
The guy is a sociopath.
And you know this how? Real question? At this point, all I’m willing to concede is that Chauvin used poor judgement. He should have known that at least one person would be making a video and that his actions would look bad. As I said above, given the drugs Floyd had taken, it’s not at all clear to me that he wouldn’t have died if he hadn’t been restrained at all.
Being a sociopath, AFAIK, isn’t a crime. Juries convict innocent people and let guilty people off. People plead guilty to crimes they didn’t commit because a jury trial can be a coin flip at best and they can’t afford a decent legal team or the prosecution is threatening others in their family.
For someone having trouble breathing, I would think a knee in the back would be more likely to do damage without actual strangulation, which usually damages the trachea and larynx and fractures the hyoid bone. Like a boa or python, you can breathe out, but not in. And again, I didn’t see anything in the ME’s report that indicated damage to the trachea or larynx, and he looked.
SteveF:
Put me down for $10.00. Or all my quatloos!
DeWitt,
“And you know this how?â€
.
I watched the video. It is obvious. ‘sociopath’ is actually a quite generous description of Chauvin’s behavior. No normal person would ever behave that way. I have, of course, seen a few people behave that badly; they were sociopaths too. But they were not uniformed police officers. I think it is clear he should never have been a cop.
.
Chauvin will go to prison, and I think it clear he should. Sometimes ‘beyond the pale’ has to be clearly defined, if only to discourage similar egregious behavior. This is one of those times. The ‘only following procedure’ defense is rubbish, and that is why he will go to prison. There is no excuse for his behavior, no matter official ‘procedures’. If he was ‘following procedure’ then those who set up those procedures need prison time as well. There can be no excuses; police must stop behaving this way.
RickA,
do you know the dollar-quatloo exchange rate?
Quatloos are hard to come by these days…
SteveF,
So we need nothing but touchy-feely cops? I don’t think so. The ability to use deadly force implies to me a certain lack of empathy that some might call sociopathic. I don’t, or at least I don’t care because if you can’t use deadly force when necessary, you shouldn’t be carrying a gun. The perp would probably take it away from you. This isn’t the UK. And even they have had firearms units in their territorial police forces since the 1990’s.
mmm. I don’t want a cop to be a sheep. I don’t want a cop to be a wolf. A sheepdog is best. But what does that really mean.
I want cops to be effective but not brutal. There’s a line there somewhere that I’m not scribbling exactly right yet.
DeWitt,
No, we don’t need touchy feely cops. We need cops who enforce the law. We also need cops who use the minimum force needed. That always precludes kneeling on the neck of an unconscious perp who is handcuffed. I honestly find it bizarre that even needs to be explained.
.
As I have said before, Chauvin will go to prison, and IMO he is most deserving of that fate. No police department needs to have people like Chauvin, and people like Chauvin need to be removed from police departments ASAP.
.
There are lots of suggestions how episodes of police brutality can be eliminated. But I think it is pretty simple: don’t hire sociopaths, and immediately get rid of any cop who shows a tendency for excessive use of force. Cops have to be like Ceasar’s wife. Unfortunately, too many are not remotely like that.
SteveF Interesting take by assist Dir. I think it would be a useful exercise to use psychological tests to weed out violent police officers. Would have to compare tests used to other methods to see if violence can really be predicted.
On the other hand, I am suspicious about hs 40% estimate for sociopathy among police officers — very convenient in that it dovetails with his efforts to attract more clients who would need his services.
SteveF asks “do you know the dollar-quatloo exchange rate?”
Nope.
But to me they are priceless (grin).
SteveF, you call it sociopathic, but are ignoring the medical issues, that Chauvin and another officer both evaluated.
MikeN,
Ya, I guess more time kneeling on the neck of someone pleading for you to stop is motivated by a desire to help the victim. If a little time kneeling on someone’s neck is good, then a lot of time must be better…. especially after he is unconscious. I doubt the jury is going to buy that. The guy is a sociopath, and he will almost certainly go to jail. The two younger cops will probably walk. The other experienced cop may or may not get jail time, but my guess is he will.
Steve F,
“No, we don’t need touchy feely cops. We need cops who enforce the law. We also need cops who use the minimum force needed. That always precludes kneeling on the neck of an unconscious perp who is handcuffed. I honestly find it bizarre that even needs to be explained.”
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We don’t need cops who use the *minimum* force needed, we need cops who use the *optimal* force needed. That may not be the same thing in the case of perps who are a danger to others and/or themselves.
.
My reaction to the video was the same of yours. Guy has trouble breathing, and callous cop kneels on his neck until he dies. You don’t need to be Conan Edogawa to think the cop was fully responsible for the death. The cop has to be a monster, not to mention wildly stupid, murdering a man in full view of bystanders while being taped — and the other three cops just watched him do it! Shades of Johnny Cash — “I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die.”
.
But I wasn’t aware of other points that undercut that narrative — that Floyd was complaining about breathing *before* he was on the ground, that neck restraint was considered a valid restraint method by the MPD, that there is as yet no physical evidence that the restraint *actually* caused Floyd’s cardiopulmonary stoppage, and that between Floyd’s heart condition and his drug levels, no restraint is necessary to *explain* the stoppage. You haven’t bothered disputing *any* of these, you just point to the video — which doesn’t contradict any of them.
.
And the odd thing is that the new information also has the effect of making Chauvin’s actions more *sensible*. Instead of committing a murder in plain view of everyone while being recorded, it has him taking actions that *he* might think has the highest probability of keeping him, his colleagues, and even Floyd safe from harm. He very well could be wrong, *badly* wrong, worrying about ExDS in someone who was just having a major health issue. He could still be callous. But he’s no longer a combination of being cartoonishly evil *and* mind-bogglingly stupid.
.
As for the point that there’s no point in restraining an unconscious, handcuffed victim, I would agree if it’s guaranteed that he will *remain* unconscious. My wife’s a cardiac nurse, and she’s had to deal with heart patients who are in a drug or dementia-induced delirium. The equivalent of handcuffs is *not* sufficient, and depending on the level of delirium they are *more* constrained than Floyd, all appenges being secured to the bed — and those are *not* released when they lose consciousness, because the moment they regain consciousness they can be a danger to themselves and others. *IF* Floyd had really been in a drug-induced delirium (I’m not convinced this was the case) I see no issue with continuing safe restraint after he loses consciousness. Neck restraint doesn’t *look* safe, but that it *isn’t* safe needs to be shown, not assumed — and for Chauvin to be morally guilty of murder *he* needs to think it is NOT safe and that it will kill Floyd.
.
I’m not doing this out of some theory that the cops are always right. My sister-in-law is a cop and I have sympathy for those doing that tough, dangerous job — but I also remember the bullet holes in my Grandad’s car where the Idaho Falls police fired on my Uncle Tim while driving it. I want justice, and justice means not just looking at one piece of evidence and ignore any other evidence that undercuts my initial assumptions.
I will wait for the trial to sort out all this evidence and find guilt or not guilty.
But I am getting ready for more riots.
RickA,
“But I am getting ready for more riots.â€
.
At least you’ll have plenty of time. The start of the trial is tentatively scheduled for next March, and long delays between now and then remain possible, if not likely. I will be surprised if a verdict is handed down much before this time next year. Chauvin could also plea guilty to a lesser charge, but given the pressure on the progressive politicians who run Minnesota, any reduction from 3rd degree murder seems unlikely. I would not be surprised if the other three cops took a plea deal to lesser charges to avoid trial if the offered jail time was minimal.
SteveF (Comment #187677): “Ya, I guess more time kneeling on the neck of someone pleading for you to stop is motivated by a desire to help the victim.”
.
That is entirely possible. People in excited delirium often inflict significant damage on themselves. Restraining them can serve to protect them from themselves. I won’t go on since Dale S has done such a good job.
SteveF:
Oh haven’t you heard. They added a 2nd degree murder charge. A felony murder charge I believe. At least the 3rd degree didn’t require intent. Based on the facts I have read, there is literally no chance Chauvin will be convicted of 2nd or 3rd degree murder. Manslaughter is doubtful, but just barely possible.
But I agree – it is unlikely they will plead down from 2nd or 3rd to just manslaughter. The mob would burn the city down (again).
But yes – plenty of time to get ready.
Lucia,
Be on the lookout up there near Chicago…
…for the Census Cowboy! Riding into a neighborhood near you to shame people for their shoddy census compliance!
mark,
That’s in the city! I think it’s funny. It might work. Who knows?
Jeff Sessions gave his concession speech. What a pity we didn’t select him tonight in Alabama to run against Doug Jones.
Oh well. But a gracious and gentlemanly speech congratulating his opponent on a campaign well run delivered with all apparent sincerity, it seems like I haven’t hear anything like this recently. It’s refreshing.
Mark Bofill,
I suspect Sessions lost for two reasons:
1) He recused himself from ‘Russia!’ and oversight of Muller, then
2) did not immediately resign…. leaving Trump to suffer the consequences for Muller’s endless witch hunt.
.
My only criticism of Sessions is that he did not appear to recognize how opposed to Trump most of the people at Justice were, and the problems that would cause…. remember that the man in charge of Muller was suggesting removal of Trump by the Cabinet for mental illness within weeks of him entering office.
.
Sessions is a honest and decent gentleman, but Trump needed a Republican version of Eric Holder, who would stop at nothing to protect Obama, not an honest gentleman.
Steve,
I don’t disagree. Well, it is what it is at this point. Hopefully Tuberville can take on Jones and win. We shall see.
Lucia,
It is funny. You’re right, maybe it will help.
shrug.
SteveF (Comment #187755): “Sessions is a honest and decent gentleman, but Trump needed a Republican version of Eric Holder, who would stop at nothing to protect Obama, not an honest gentleman.”
.
No, what Trump needed was Bill Barr: an honest, by the book bulldog. A Republican holder would have just poured gasoline on the fire. Even Barr is generating tremendous abuse.
MikeM,
Yes, you are right, Barr would be better than a Republican version of Eric Holder. But in any case, Sessions should have resigned as soon as he recused himself. That crippled him, and left Trump to the Justice Department and FBI wolves; Sessions basically couldn’t do his job correctly.
Sessions’s recusal was probably necessary. However, given that Russia was a counterintelligence investigation and not criminal, he could have limited his recusal to certain things. The special counsel regulations are for criminal investigations giving Sessions even more room for oversight. They would have had to make clear from the beginning that Mueller was investigating obstruction of justice, which would have neutralized the political damage.
Sessions resigning would not have affected Mueller, since a replacement would have had to give certain assurances to get confirmed.
MikeN,
“Sessions resigning would not have affected Mueller, since a replacement would have had to give certain assurances to get confirmed.”
I don’t know.
Sessions recuses: March 2, 2017
Comey fired: May 9
Mueller appointed: May 17
.
Sessions recused himself on March 2, 2017. Had Sessions resigned immediately, Rosenstein as DAG would have automatically become acing AG. Although here is legal debate about if the president can legally assign a different acting AG, he did so when Sessions did finally resign in 2018, and the courts might be reluctant to get involved in such a sticky wicket had Sessions resigned immediately and Trump appointed an acting AG rather than Rosenstein.
.
In any case, there would have been plenty of time after March 2, but before Comey was fired on May 7, for someone like Barr (who already confirmed for AG by the Senate years ago) to have been confirmed and take over DOJ. I very much doubt Barr would have appointed someone like Muller…. if he agreed to appoint anyone at all. Certainly Barr would not have allowed Mueller’s gang of marauders to barge through everything Trump for years.
SteveF, good point. I forgot Comey wasn’t fired yet.
Mark Bofill “Jeff Sessions gave his concession speech. What a pity we didn’t select him tonight in Alabama to run against Doug Jones.”
In a lot of ways I am OK with Sessions. However, he made a huge mistake in appointing Rod Rosenstein who has to be the worst lawyer in the history of the world. The FBI had possession of a document stating that the Steele Dossier was gossip in January of 2017, and it was the basic predicate for Mueller’s “investigation.” How he could not double check the FBI’s work and let the fishing expedition go on for 20 months (with 3 more fraudulent FISA’s filed) based on nothing is beyond belief to me.
Maybe, he was a secret never Trumper.
JDOhio,
There is nothing secret about it… he wanted Trump removed from office in January 2017. He discussed the 25th amendment and asked if Pence and the cabinet would agree to remove Trump. As I have said several times before, when a president of a different party assumes office, every person at every Federal agency who the new president can fire should be gone the day of inauguration. There is zero reason to keep them around, and it is crazy to let them stay and undermine the new administration’s policies.
The New York Times has published transcripts of the bodycam audio from the officers involved in George Floyd’s death.
He resisted getting in the police car, saying he was claustrophobic, and the police eventually decided to call EMS.
Yep. Yet another thing to damn Chauvin for.
We already knew he resisted getting in the car and said he was claustrophobic. So that’s not new. But it’s even more reprehensible of Chauvin to kneel on his neck until he died if he knew Floyd needed EMS help.
lucia (Comment #187535): “But it’s even more reprehensible of Chauvin to kneel on his neck until he died if he knew Floyd needed EMS help.”
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That is almost exactly backwards. The officers reasonably believed that Floyd was in the throes of excited delirium and all evidence points to that assessment being correct. In such causes, Minneapolis Police Department policy is to hold the suspect down on the ground until EMS arrives to administer ketamine. So far, there is no evidence that Chauvin acted contrary to policy.
For details:
https://medium.com/@gavrilodavid/why-derek-chauvin-may-get-off-his-murder-charge-2e2ad8d0911
In all probability, it was drug induced excited delirium that killed Floyd, not the cops.
Did Chauvin kneel on Floyd’s neck? If so, why could he raise his head (as seen on video). Floyd didn’t die from asphyxiation. I think Chauvin will say he was using his knee to prevent Floyd from getting up – but he wasn’t kneeling on him (i.e. putting his weight on his neck). I guess we will learn more about this issue at trial.
I think the excited delirium stuff will be a major factor in this case. Did the police follow the white paper procedure for handling excited delirium? Were the cops supposed to get Chauvin to the ground and hold his arms and legs? Here is an article from the cop point of view (with a link to the white paper):
https://www.lawofficer.com/minneapolis-disaster/
Here is a quote from the white paper cited in the above article:
“In subjects who do not respond to verbal calming
and de-escalation techniques, control measures are
a prerequisite for medical assessment and intervention. When necessary, this should be accomplished
as rapidly and safely as possible. Recent research
indicates that physical struggle is a much greater
contributor to catecholamine surge and metabolic
acidosis than other causes of exertion or noxious
stimuli. Since these parameters are thought to contribute to poor outcomes in ExDS, the specific physical control methods employed should optimally minimize the time spent struggling, while safely
achieving physical control. The use of multiple personnel with training in safe physical control measures is encouraged.
After adequate physical control is achieved, medical
assessment and treatment should be immediately
initiated. Indeed, because death might occur suddenly, EMS should ideally be present and prepared
to resuscitate before definitive LEO control measures are initiated.”
Was their control safe? Well that is up for debate (obviously). I think there is an argument it was. Yes, Floyd died while under physical control – but he was on drugs and died from heart failure, not from lack of blood to the brain or asphyxiation.
The cops had called for EMS and were keeping physical control until they arrived. So were they following procedure? Well ideally EMS should have been there when they took control – but ideal conditions are pretty rare in the real world. I really doubt either 2nd or 3rd degree murder charges are going to stick against any of the 4 officers. Intent to kill – I don’t think so. Killing during a felony – I don’t think so. That seems like overcharging to me.
In fact, I really question whether this will be found to be manslaughter – because were the officers really engaged in extreme reckless disregard for life?
I also read something (which I cannot find unfortunately) which indicated it was even possible that Floyd threw himself on the ground as part of his resistance to being put into the car – I wonder if that turns out to be true if that will matter?
So there are a whole bunch of facts which may be introduced in the defense of the officers which make this situation not quite as clear cut as the video seems to show.
I think we should get ready for another riot at the conclusion of the trial – because based on what I read I am not sure the jury will convict on any of the charges, even against Chauvin (the most experienced officer).
By the way – I live in Minnesota, which is why I have been reading so much about this case.
RickA,
I watched the video. There was clearly a great deal of pressure on Floyd’s neck, and before losing consciousness Floyd said multiple times that he couldn’t breath. At the trial, the prosecution will lay out Chauvin’s history of multiple complaints of excessive force. The jury will watch the video, and conclude, like most people, that Chauvin is a sociopathic monster.
.
I will be shocked if Chauvin does not go to jail for a very long time. Unless held in solitary, or sent to a prison that houses only non-violent offenders, I will be shocked if he survives very long once he gets there.
MikeM,
If what Chauvin actually did did in its totality is acting according to policy, it means there is something very wrong with policy. That’s an even bigger problem.
I imagine there are other overlapping policies such as “stop kneeling on people after they pass out”, or “try to determine if a person is dying if they stop responding”. A strict isolated reading of that policy might get charges reduced to something less than murder, but I doubt it. The video is going to sway the jury, his best hope is a hung jury, in which case this will be retried as many times as it takes.
SteveF (Comment #187539): “before losing consciousness Floyd said multiple times that he couldn’t breath.”
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That is a common consequence of excited delirium. It seems that there is little that can be done until the EMT’s arrive, except that maybe it helps to immobilize the patient.
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SteveF: “At the trial, the prosecution will lay out Chauvin’s history of multiple complaints of excessive force.”
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Any police officer who does his job will accumulate such complaints. It turns out that criminals don’t like being arrested.
There are reports that Chauvin’s service record is actually exemplary.
——
lucia: “If what Chauvin actually did did in its totality is acting according to policy, it means there is something very wrong with policy.”
That may or may not be true. You are not qualified to judge that. Neither am I.
———
Tom Scharf (Comment #187542),
You seem to be looking at this from the point of view of common sense. But common sense is entirely irrelevant when dealing with excited delirium.
SteveF,
The medium article has this quote from the original government complaint against Chauvin.
—
Mr. Floyd stiffened up, fell to the ground, and told the officers he was claustrophobic […] Mr. Floyd did not voluntarily get in the car and struggled with the officers by intentionally falling down, saying he was not going in the car, and refusing to stand still […] While standing outside the car, Mr. Floyd began saying and repeating that he could not breathe.
—
This happened *before* Chauvin was kneeling on him. The horror from the video is that Chauvin is kneeling on the neck of someone who can’t breathe — but if Floyd is complaining that he can’t breathe *before* he’s restrained, Floyd’s complaint is not proof that the restraint itself was causing breathing difficulties. For the same reason, Chauvin’s unconsciousness is not proof that Chauvin was applying more force than he should have. The medium article calculates the median use of force expected from the double knee position to be 45 pounds and claims that “45 lbs is definitively insufficient to restrict breathing or blood-flow in the neck.” Chauvin *could* have been applying more force than that, but can that be determined from the video? Maybe the medical examiner can get an idea from bruising?
.
Do we know how many of the previous complaints against Chauvin were specifically about excessive violence? The medium article states only one complaint was sustained, asking a woman to exit the car when exceeding the speed limit by ten MPH. Unless there’s more to that story, that’s not an excessive violence complaint.
Lucia,
It’s quite possible that there’s something very wrong with the policy, and that was the take of the medium article as well. I quote:
—
Let’s be clear: the actions of Chauvin and the other officers were absolutely wrong. But they were also in line with MPD rules and procedures for the condition which they determined was George Floyd was suffering from. An act that would normally be considered a clear and heinous abuse of force, such as a knee-to-neck restraint on a suspect suffering from pulmonary distress, can be legitimatized if there are overriding concerns not known to bystanders but known to the officers. In the case of George Floyd, the overriding concern was that he was suffering from ExDS, given a number of relevant facts known to the officers. This was not known to the bystanders, who only saw a man with pulmonary distress pinned down with a knee on his neck. While the officers may still be found guilty of manslaughter, the probability of a guilty verdict for the murder charge is low, and the public should be aware of this well in advance of the verdict.
.
While we should pursue justice for George Floyd, we should be absolutely sure that we are pursuing justice against his real killers. A careful examination of the evidence points to the procedures and rules of the MPD, rather than the police officers following these procedures and rules, as the real killers of George Floyd. If anyone murdered George Floyd, it was the MPD and the local political establishment.
—
The article goes on to show how Chauvin’s behavior was permitted or recommended by MPD instructions on ExDS. But their dive into the details also shows that ExDS deaths can happen *regardless* of the kind of restraint, and that restraining a subject until EMS can arrive and medicate is the best you can do — if the authors want to put a murder charge on the policy-makers, I’d think there would be some evidence that the policy was likely to kill *and* there was clearly an alternative policy that would not put officers at risk. There’s nothing in the medium article that shows where the MPD *should* have known better, though perhaps exploring that was beyond the scope of the article. Two interesting quotes from the MPD-distributed white paper:
—
“Given the irrational and potentially violent, dangerous, and lethal behavior of an ExDS subject, any LEO interaction with a person in this situation risks significant injury or death to either the LEO or the ExDS subject who has a potentially lethal medical syndrome. This already challenging situation has the potential for intense public scrutiny coupled with the expectation of a perfect outcome. Anything less creates a situation of potential public outrage. Unfortunately, this dangerous medical situation makes perfect outcomes difficult in many circumstances.”
—
“In those cases where a death occurs while in custody, there is the additional difficulty of separating any potential contribution of control measures from the underlying pathology. For example, was death due to the police control tool, or to positional asphyxia, or from ExDS, or from interplay of all these factors? Even in the situation where all caregivers agree that a patient is in an active delirious state, there is no proof of the most safe and effective control measure or therapy for what is most likely an extremely agitated patient.”
—-
What if those quotes are 100% correct? Is anyone guilty of murder?
.
It’s also an interesting find that a University of Minnesota study that used MPD officers found no support for the existence of positional asphyxia as a contributor to death. The medium article argues that it was “probable” that Chauvin was aware of the study, but that assumes the 5% of officers involved would’ve spread information about it. It also calculates a 21% chance that one of the four officers would’ve been a participant, but as two of the officers were newbies, I’m not sure that’s correct either. Sadly there’s not a link to the study itself, only quotes from it.
.
One thing that’s not addressed in the medium article at all is whether the restraint for ExDS should be relaxed when the subject becomes unconscious.
MikeM
Wrong.
Juries will judge this. I am qualified to be on a jury. So are you.
Dale,
I’m not sure where I stand on your larger point, but
I doubt this. 45 lbs is a heck of a lot of pressure. Imagine holding a bag full of ten (10) 2-liter bottles of soda, that’s approximately 45 lbs. I’m pretty sure it’s a matter of the application of that force that’s the deterministic factor, but I believe 45 lbs of force is more than plenty to choke somebody out or strangulate them.
[Edit: let me put it another way. I’m pretty sure from practicing with him that my 13 year old black belt kid could choke me out, assuming he could hold on / assuming I couldn’t dislodge him. He’s pretty scrawny; weighs all of about 100 pounds. I’m almost certain he’s not putting 45 lbs of pressure on my neck when he’s got me.]
lucia,
Yes, we are all theoretically potential jurors, but we are not seeing evidence as would be presented to a jury by prosecution and defense. So reaching a conclusion before a trial would actually disqualify a potential juror.
Floyd has been referred to as a healthy young man. If an enlarged heart and 75% restriction of coronary arteries is consistent with being a healthy young man, no wonder health care in the US is so expensive. And that’s not to mention all the drugs that were found in his system: fentanyl, methamphetamine, marijuana and caffeine.
Instead of my anecdotes, here:
https://www.strangulationtraininginstitute.com/authorities-lead-strangulation-investigation-training/
between 5 and 11 psi to strangle.
I read here
https://blog.ceb.com/2014/09/19/7-facts-every-judge-and-attorney-should-know-when-domestic-violence-involves-strangulation/#:~:text=It%20takes%20surprisingly%20little%20pressure%20to%20strangle%20someone.&text=It%20takes%20only%204%20pounds,the%20trachea%20(air%20flow).
it takes about 33 pounds to choke somebody. That still seems high to me, but *shrug*.
mark bofill (Comment #187547): “I doubt this. 45 lbs is a heck of a lot of pressure.”
That was my reaction when I saw that in the article. But presumably, the author was using a source more authoritative than our uninformed guesses.
From Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strangling#General
So a well focused 45 lbs could definitely do the job, but a knee is not all that well focused. And Chauvin’s knee was not on Floyd’s windpipe or jugular.
Mark Bofill,
The claim made by the article was specifically in the context of a double knee prone restraint. Pressure to the *front* of the neck is a different story. If I put my hand to the front of my neck and press, not as hard as I possibly could, I can certainly feel constricted breathing. If I put my hand to the back of my neck and press as hard as I can, I feel no breathing constriction at all. I’ve no experience with strangulation, but my impression from tv and movies is that it involves squeezing the front of the neck.
.
Now if you press down hard enough on the back of the neck, I would guess you could press the front of the neck into something hard and induce strangulation that way. I wouldn’t expect to be able to talk if that level of pressure is applied, though.
lucia (Comment #187545): “Juries will judge this. I am qualified to be on a jury. So are you.”
.
Juries will make their judgements after being presented with information that you or I do not have.
And juries often judge things that they are not qualified to judge.
You might be excused for not knowing this, as this message hasn’t been broadcast very widely.
.
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/07/09/889618702/police-viewed-less-favorably-but-few-want-to-defund-them-survey-finds
.
“On a point advocated by many of the protesters, only a quarter of those surveyed (25%) said that funding for the police should be decreased. Seventy-three percent said they thought funding for the police should either stay about the same (42%), be increased a little (20%) or a lot (11%).”
.
More people want to increase funding than decrease funding. Now back to your original programming …
This is a really good essay on the jam that liberals have gotten themselves into with respect to the Marxists on their left:
https://thefederalist.com/2020/07/10/liberals-only-hope-against-neo-marxists-is-an-alliance-with-the-right/
Ignore the title, at least until you get to the end.
Mike M.,
See, for example, glyphosate causing non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma and talcum powder causing ovarian cancer. The latter would be funny if you weren’t a plaintiff’s attorney trying to get rich and the money involved weren’t so substantial. And that’s not to mention clearly biased judges in at least some of those cases.
MikeM
I suspect you are not qualified to judge what juries are qualified to judge. 🙂
Chauvin will go to jail, for a really long time… assuming he survives there once he arrives (see Whitey Bulger).
.
I suspect in the future other police officers will think better of kneeling on people’s necks until they are unconscious.
SteveF (Comment #187561); “Chauvin will go to jail, for a really long time”
.
I see that the lynch mob mentality is alive and well.
Mark
Note: They mean psi, not pounds. This is probably why in mystery series we see people exerting the force using a rope there by achieving high pressure with little force.
I would imagine the pressure exerted on the trachea by kneeling could be highly variable depending on whether the force was applied by the cop’s shin, a fleshy part of his leg, and the head position of the person whose neck is being kneeled on. The median value from some study is beside the point if the amount in a specific instance is different.
One of the other cops present says he ask whether Chauvin shouldn’t turn Floyd. This by itself suggests a reasonable cop would consider doing something different.
Lucia,
I very much agree. I think all of the talk about how Chauvin’s knee was positioned on Floyd’s neck fails [to grasp] how difficult it can be to apply techniques properly when using one’s hands and arms, where people have much finer control than they do over the weight and exact positioning of their knees.
In my opinion, kneeling on the neck is too difficult a technique to control and should be avoided unless killing the controlled person is considered an acceptable outcome to the situation, because it seems like it’s definitely a possible outcome within the margin of human error in applying such a technique.
Holy smokes, right in my own backyard (more or less) on Redstone!
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-army-investigating-handout-white-supremacy
SteveF:
“I suspect in the future other police officers will think better of kneeling on people’s necks until they are unconscious.”
.
I suspect they’ll avoid kneeling on necks entirely. They may abandon the prone position completely. They may in fact abandon trying to restrain suspected ExDS *at all*, since they may very well die no matter how you are trying to restrain them — and if it happens to you, you could go to jail. For murder. This may not be a net improvement for society.
.
The purpose of the neck restraint is supposed to be restraint, not to render the suspect/victim unconscious. The assumption from the video is that Floyd couldn’t breathe *because* he was being kneeled on, but we now know he claimed he couldn’t breathe before he was ever even prone.
Lucia,
The exchange about moving position was in the medium article:
–from government complaint–
Lane asked, “should we roll him on his side?†and the defendant said, “No, staying put where we got him.†Officer Lane said, “I am worried about excited delirium or whatever.†The defendant said, “That’s why we have him on his stomach.â€
–medium article–
This excerpt is of twofold importance. First, it demonstrates that two officers suspected excited delirium. Second, it demonstrates that Chauvin was restraining Floyd in this position because he suspected excited delirium (“that’s why we have him on his stomachâ€).
—
I agree the median value of the pressure can’t be assumed to be the force that Chauvin actually used, and if he used excessive pressure on the neck so as to pressure the trachea and render Floyd unconscious that would certainly seem to go well beyond MPD policy. But pressure on the back of the neck doesn’t automatically translate to *any* pressure on the trachea, let alone 33 pounds worth.
DaleS,
Importance you seem to have missed: It shows that another cop thought Floyd should be on his side and aired that. Chauvin persisted in his preference despite another cops concern that Floyd might be experiencing “whatever” (among other things.)
I haven’t claimed anything about the pressure on the neck “automatically” translating into pressure on the neck. Merely it can. And the guy suffocated.
That’s not the assumptoin from the video. The assumption from the video is that Chauvin continued to kneel on his neck despite Floyd being unable to breath and despite Chauvin knowing full well Floyd was having difficulty breathing. That body cam makes this fact even clearer.
Good. The practice seems to be banned in most police departments with Minn an exception. It’s especially not considered good practice when the person being arrested is already restrained and in handcuffs and doesn’t present an immediate danger– which Floyd certainly did not when on the ground in hand cuffs.
Ending the dodgy practice would be a good thing.
Dale S,
“This may not be a net improvement for society.”
.
Consider for a moment the cost to the USA of Chauvin’s idiotic choice of restraining technique… many billions of dollars, many lives lost, many injuries, terrible social disruption, the normalization of blatantly criminal behavior, justification for the lunatic left to run rampant, and the increased likelihood that a demented old man will assume the presidency in January 2021… and turn the reins of power over to a bunch of crazy lefties.
.
I am certain that completely stopping all similar police restrains will be a HUGE net improvement for society. The police everywhere have to understand: don’t ever do this, or anything remotely similar.
MikeM,
“I see that the lynch mob mentality is alive and well.”
.
I believe you are completely mistaken. There is no lynching here. A jury will send him to prison, not a lynch mob. If you can’t see from the video that the guy is obviously a violent sociopath, then there is nothing I can say that will make any difference.
.
But he is now sitting in jail, and you can be certain that is where he will stay for a very, very long time.
I don’t go quite as far as Steve. I don’t know that Chauvin was a sociopath. It’s possible Chauvin was trained to think that technique was safer than I think it actually is. It might have just been a mistake.
But. A suspect already in handcuffs got killed, and it certainly looks as if the knee to the neck could have been the cause. I don’t think he should skate for that.
lucia (Comment #187570): “It shows that another cop thought Floyd should be on his side and aired that.”
.
That is of no value whatever. So a rookie cop was not sure of what to do; that does not mean that the veteran was wrong.
Now if MPD policy says to put him on his side, that is an issue. But it seems that was not policy.
——
lucia: “Chauvin persisted in his preference despite another cops concern that Floyd might be experiencing “whatever†(among other things.)”
.
You have no evidence for that. It appears that Chauvin was concerned about the same thing as the rookie and at least thought he was following procedure.
——-
lucia: “And the guy suffocated.”
.
No, he died of a heart attack.
——-
lucia: “It’s especially not considered good practice when the person being arrested is already restrained and in handcuffs and doesn’t present an immediate danger– which Floyd certainly did not when on the ground in hand cuffs.”
.
That is irrelevant. What is relevant is how to handle a suspect in the throes of excited delirium. *All* choices have a high probability of ending in death. The procedure used may well lie within the rage of accepted procedures. If it was the procedure used by the MPD, then Chauvin did nothing wrong.
SteveF (Comment #187571): “Consider for a moment the cost to the USA of Chauvin’s idiotic choice of restraining technique”
.
No, I will not consider that. It is irrelevant unless it was against procedure.
.
I don’t want cops to worry about the possible PR consequences of their actions. That can only result in ineffective and inconsistent policing. I want them to do their job, in accordance with procedure.
mark bofill (Comment #187575): “it certainly looks as if the knee to the neck could have been the cause. I don’t think he should skate for that.”
.
*IF* it was the cause and *IF* it was not procedure. Both are in doubt.
Not to pick nits, but I thought George Floyd died of cardiac arrest. Cardiac arrest can be caused by suffocation.
.
[Edit: IF it was the cause, yes. If it was procedural… I’m not sure how much that ought to mitigate. Is there some clear line between that idea and the ‘I was just following orders’ defense? I’m not sure off the top of my head.]
At some point, there’s a common sense line. We wouldn’t excuse a cop who shot and killed a suspect completely unprovoked even if there *was* some crackbrained procedure he was following. At least I wouldn’t.
It might be that this case is close enough to the line to cut the guy some slack. But there has to be a penalty, even if he was following procedure, if the knee to the neck was the cause of death: he killed a handcuffed suspect who was no threat. People can’t kill people and say ‘oh, bad procedure’ and have that be OK, that’s not OK.
mark bofill,
One of the problems with the Warren Court’s creation of qualified immunity is that saying ‘oh, bad procedure’ is a defense.
Looking at the county autopsy report, it was not at all clear to me that Chauvin was primarily responsible for Floyd’s death. There didn’t appear to be physical evidence that blood flow to the brain was restricted. There also didn’t appear to be damage to the trachea and larynx. Shortness of breath, i.e. “I can’t breathe” is a symptom of a heart attack. The fact that he was actually able to say “I can’t breathe” could mean that he was already having a heart attack before he went to the ground, not that his breathing was restricted. But I’m not a pathologist or medical examiner.
mark bofill,
If it can be shown that Chauvin *killed* a handcuffed suspect who was no threat, then he certainly won’t skate. But the assumption that Floyd died only because Chauvin kneeled on him may not actually be true! And that’s really the crux of the issue — if Floyd *didn’t* suffocate and there’s no evidence of constricted airflow, Chauvin didn’t kill Floyd, let alone intend to kill him.
Dale S,
I am pretty sure the jury will not agree with you. The video is going to send Chauvin to prison. It will not matter what other evidence is produced; people do not accept that kind of police behavior, and never will.
Dale S,
I am pretty sure the jury will not agree with you. The video is going to send Chauvin to prison. It will not matter what other evidence is produced; people do not accept that kind of police behavior, and never will.
Dale , ok.
DeWitt, thanks. As usual I’m more concerned with what I think is right as opposed to legal. I think we ought to reconsider police qualified immunity.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html
MIkeM
Huh? Are you saying Chauvin didn’t elect to do the knee to the neck? Are you saying the cop didn’t suggest a change (rolling the guy over?) Are you saying Chauvin didn’t persist in the method Chauvin had picked to deal with Floyd?
.
Chauvin is the one who diagnosed “whatever”, picked the method of dealing with “whatever” and did not change course when another cop brought up another option. I have no idea how you can even begin to suggest I have no evidence for that!
SteveF,
By saying the jury “will not agree with meâ€, are you arguing that *if* the jury believes that Floyd did not die of suffocation and did not have his airflow restricted by the neck restraint, they would *still* convict Chauvin of murder because they don’t like the way the video looked? And you’re OK with that outcome?
.
The officer that gunned down Philando Castile was acquitted by a Minnesota jury of *manslaughter*. In that case there’s *no possibility* that the death was not a result of direct officer action. Even the officer who gunned down the unarmed Justine Damond without provocation was acquitted of second degree murder (third degree and manslaughter did stick).
Lucia,
The independent autopsy makes the medium article too, when discussing the very similar death of Donald Lewis (though in that case the victim was white and the kneeler was black):
—
The parallel to our current case does not end here. An official autopsy declared cause of death “sudden respiratory arrest following physical struggling restraint due to cocaine-induced excited delirium.†The legal team hired Dr. Michael Baden, who testified that Lewis died from “asphyxia caused by neck compression.†Baden is the same medical examiner who was hired by the George Floyd family, and made a similar finding. Baden is also the same medical examiner who was hired for Eric Garner, and declared death by “compression of the neckâ€. Baden is also the same medical examiner who was hired by the Brown family to examine Michael Brown, and Baden found that Brown died while surrendering, an assertion totally disproven by a DoJ investigation spearheaded by AG Eric Holder under Obama. Suffice it to say, Michael Baden has a very specific interest, and a very tenuous track record. The Court will be aware of this when weighing the autopsies.
Dales S,
I am saying juries weigh all kinds of evidence, and I am pretty sure they will weigh the visual evidence heavily, and based on that, Chauvin will go to prison. Do you honestly think he won’t? (not rhetorical)
DaleS,
The jury will also know the official autopsy is not necessarily independent of police department interests.
In other words: He stopped breathing because a cop was restraining him by putting a knee on his neck.
Honestly not seeing how the cocain or delirum chages this in the official report: He suffocated because Chauvin’s knee was on his neck.
.
Lucia,
It’s not impossible that he died of cardiac arrest due to anxiety about the situation. Floyd might have been high as a kite (I haven’t read conclusively either way) which could have made it worse, but even if he wasn’t, his speech in the transcript seems to indicate extreme anxiety.
I don’t think it’ s unreasonable to suspect that the knee on the neck had something to do with it, or even a lot to do with it. Personally I suspect you’re right; I put my money on the knee being a bigger contributing factor than the anxiety. But it’s not impossible that Floyd died of a cardiac arrest brought on by extreme panic.
Say Lucia, are Freddy and Toby registered to vote?
https://www.redstate.com/mike_miller/2020/07/10/dead-cat-gets-voter-registration-form-in-the-mail-cats-political-affiliation-unknown/
I mean, I know your cats are alive and all… Just thought I’d ask.
I haven’t thought to register them. I suppose they were born in the USA, and so US citizens.
Oh– but they are only 4 years old. So they aren’t eligible to vote yet.
mark bofill,
On the Floyd thing: My focus isn’t so much on whether or not this was murder but whether this was right. That’s why my view is that things are even worse if Chauvin was following police procedure. Dying because of extreme panic brought on by a cop kneeling on your neck would still be a wrong on the part of the cop and even worse if it was “SOP”.
Lucia,
I don’t see how any reasonable person could argue with that. I agree.
.
[Er, the Floyd thing. Not registering your cats to vote.]
Just a little context here about jury role, based on my experience in Ohio, which probably mirrors Minnesota. In Ohio, if an injury requires a medical explanation, the jury must be provided with expert medical testimony. The jury is not free to speculate on what may have caused Floyd’s death. There is an exception for obvious, simple injuries, (like a real hot poker causing blindness in an eye) but Ohio wouldn’t call this obvious or simple.
The autopsy evidence is unclear to me. Baden explained on tape how pressure on the back can restrict diaphragm movement and suffocate you, which makes sense to me. However, the official autopsy still does not find suffocation.
The official autopsy found this: “the Hennepin County Medical Examiner issued a press release on Monday stating Floyd’s death was a homicide caused by cardiopulmonary arrest due to police “subdual, restraint, and neck compression.” https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/national-international/family-autopsy-floyd-asphyxiated-sustained-pressure/2282015/
These are very different findings. One article I read said that Baden didn’t actually do an autopsy or view one. That could very well explain the differences.
Here is the wording of original autopsy report.
“”III. No life-threatening injuries identified
A. No facial, oral mucosal, or conjunctival petechiae
B. No injuries of anterior muscles of neck or laryngeal
structures
C. No scalp soft tissue, skull, or brain injuries
D. No chest wall soft tissue injuries, rib fractures (other
than a single rib fracture from CPR), vertebral column
injuries, or visceral injuries
E. Incision and subcutaneous dissection of posterior and
lateral neck, shoulders, back, flanks, and buttocks
negative for occult trauma.” https://www.lucianne.com/2020/06/05/michael_baden_did_not_perform_autopsybr_but_you_are_being_told_he_did_35802.html
lucia (Comment #187604): ” Dying because of extreme panic brought on by a cop kneeling on your neck would still be a wrong on the part of the cop and even worse if it was “SOPâ€.”
.
I agree, if that is what happened.
But it seems likely that is *not* what happened. Floyd probably died of excited delirium brought on by his drug use.
MikeM,
That’s not consistent with either autopsy report.
There were 800 deaths in the latest CDC daily numbers. However, CDC added more than 4000 people to the overall count. Someone went and checked, and found that these were mostly before May.
Lucia, no autopsy would diagnose excited delirium, as it is only considered real by a few medical fields.
The issue is that MPD says it is imperative to stop the person from struggling. Floyd may very well have been acting within procedure.
However, he will probably still be convicted, with the prosecution having an available fallback of going after him for not putting Floyd up once he was unconscious, as was done with Donald Lewis.
I missed the news that in April Mark Jacobson was ordered to pay legal fees to Clack and NAS for his defamation lawsuit after they published a critiques of one of his renewable energy papers.
MikeN,
Yep. I read about Mark Jacobson. I think the amount of money is to be determined, but he’s going to have to pay. And he already paid his own costs. Ah…. poor guy. 🙂
MikeN,
Thanks, I had not seen that ruling. Jacobson is not likely to ever pay anything, but it is nice he got ‘slapped’ down by the court. Even if he were forced to pay something, I am sure the lunatic green organizations will cover his cost, just as they very likely funded his suit in 2017.
SteveF,
I too suspect green organizations must have covered the cost of his suit. I think he claimed his legal fees were near $1million. That’s just way too much money to spend on what would at best be wounded pride.
lucia (Comment #187611): “That’s not consistent with either autopsy report.”
.
From what I understand, cardiac arrest while under the influence of high levels of fentanyl and methamphetamine is entirely consistent with excited delirium.
Fentanyl and methamphetamine is likely similar to the combination of heroin and cocaine that killed John Belushi. Methamphetamine is known to be cardiotoxic.
As I read the autopsy report, Floyd exhibited all the symptoms listed above for chronic methamphetamine use.
And in other news, Gary Larson (The Far Side) has been drawing again using a tablet computer rather than pen and ink.
https://www.thefarside.com
Police have to have some “normally non-deadly” force options available. A problem arises if you ban tasers because they can be deadly in some instances then deadly force may be used more often. If the knee to the neck is banned, which seems reasonable, then a substitute must replace it. It is unclear what that might be.
Lucia,
my quote from the article was “sudden respiratory arrest following physical struggling restraint.”
.
You responded with:
“In other words: He stopped breathing because a cop was restraining him by putting a knee on his neck.”
.
No, he stopped breathing, as the rest of the quote indicated, “due to cocaine-induced excited delirium.” This quote was about the parallel Donald Lewis case, where not only was he subject to knee restraint, he was also zip tied and a hobble prone restraint. According to the description of ExDS in the medium article, the sufferer continues to resist even when thoroughly incapacitated, even to the point of death. In Donald Lewis’ case he died prone. In Willard Truckenmiler’s case he died seated. In Roy Scott’s case he died on his side. And in all these cases it’s quite possible that each of them would have died in *any* restraint position, or possibly without any restraint at all. The MPD-circulated white paper says as much — the excited delirium sufferer may die no matter what you do, and there’s no demonstrated safe way (or best way) to restrain them until EMS can get there and (hopefully) make things better.
.
There’s a Judge’s order on the Lewis case here from the lawsuit:
http://www.aele.org/law/2009all01/lewis-wpb.html
In his case, the officers reported a pulse after he stopped breathing (though they performed CPR, which seems odd to me). The medical examiner seemed wishy-washy about the restraint as a contributing factor, calling it a poorly understood phenomenon.
.
“You know, this isn’t the only time it’s ever happened. It happened before and it will happen again. It’s not going to matter whether the police restrain them or what type of restraint device or mechanism — I don’t know what the term is — that they use. It doesn’t matter if they use Tasers or they come up with a new device.”
“There’s something about the struggle, you know, whether that — that interacts and maybe just puts them over the edge to, you know, go into — at least in this case it appeared to be a respiratory arrest. But it could be a cardiac arrest or a cardiopulmonary arrest. Who the hell knows unless you got them all hooked up to the machines when this is all happening.”
.
I don’t find “who the hell knows” exactly reminiscent of Quincy…. This was his response if asked if the restraint alone could have caused the death:
“Well, if I thought the death was as a result of him being restrained, that’s what I would have called it. The way I phrased it is, again, I think probably it shows that I can’t completely rule it out, but at the same time that’s what was happening at the time, you know, that he became unresponsive.”
“So it’s being honest in the sense that this is happening. He’s being restrained and he suddenly becomes limp and unresponsive. I’m not sure that just restraining him was the cause of his death. If I did, I would have said that he died of either traumatic asphyxiation or suffocation or something like that. I think it’s a lot more complex than that, and I think it starts with his excited delirium.”
Baden dismisses this and claims that “[I]n my experience in looking at excited delirium cases . . . invariably, the person would have died without the excited delirium. It’s the physical forces that are involved that cause the death.” Baden diagnosed the cause of death as asphyxia caused by neck compression, but the judge also found his testimony equivocal. Without quoting Baden, this is how the judge summarized it:
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“But Dr. Baden could not identify any of the officers’ actions in particular that might have led to Lewis’ death. Id. Dr. Baden also acknowledged that he could not tell from the evidence before him precisely when Lewis stopped breathing, or by what mechanism the officers’ actions might have caused Lewis to stop breathing.”
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So strong claim — but no evidence? Now, in this case the judge *did* find that “a reasonable juror could find that the officers used constitutionally excessive force under the circumstances,” since he saw no purpose for the kneeling (knee/back restraint) after Lewis was handcuffed and “effectively immobilized”. (There was also additional restraint, and some manhandling of the legs, not present in Floyd’s case.) The decision went on the basis of qualified immunity, since it wasn’t sufficient that it could be considered constitutionally excessive in the absence of evidence that the *officer* would know that it’s constitutionally excessive.
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“Plaintiff conceded at oral argument that there are no relevant cases with materially indistinguishable facts (or, for that matter, with facts even vaguely similar to the case at bar) holding that an officer’s knee on a detainee’s back, or the use of a hobble restraint, constitutes excessive force. The court’s own research has likewise revealed none. Thus, plaintiff is unable to overcome the officers’ qualified immunity defense with the first method described above.”
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This seems disturbingly circular to me — if you can’t declare some technique excessive force without it previously being considered excessive force, how on earth does any technique ever pass this bar? This comment I thought was interesting:
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“By contrast [to Mercado, a case where qualified immunity was overcome], in this case there is no allegation or evidence that Officer Shaw knew at any time that the force he used against Lewis could have led to his death.”
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Now this surprises me, since this is on details very similar to the Floyd case, but the outrage against Chauvin is *driven* precisely by the idea that he knew the force he was using would lead to Floyd’s death. In this case, the victim actually died from stopping breathing, Shaw kneeled on his neck and back, and no one claimed that he knew it could lead to his death!
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Lucia writes:
“Honestly not seeing how the cocain or delirum chages this in the official report: He suffocated because Chauvin’s knee was on his neck.”
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That’s not Floyd’s official report. It was *Lewis* who had cocaine and stopped breathing (not suffocation). Floyd died of cardiopulmonary arrest — his heart stopped. And he had two heart diseases and three drugs in him (not cocaine), include a Fentanyl level higher than the median in fatal NH overdoses of that drug.
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If Floyd *had* suffocated, and suffocated only because Chauvin’s knee was on his neck, this would be a slamdunk case. That’s what the bystanders thought, and why not — Floyd is saying he can’t breathe while an officer is kneeling on his neck! But Floyd was saying he couldn’t breathe *before* he was on the ground, and likely was already in distress when the cops were called. (The 911 transcript says he’s not “acting right”).
Here’s a case from yesterday showing why dashcams and bodycams can quickly resolve a situation. Officer shooting in Detroit, the usual misinformation follows, protests, stuff thrown at police etc.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2020/07/10/detroit-police-fatal-shooting-block-party/5415913002/
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“We hear one thing from the police, and another thing from the community. The community told us that the police pulled up, told [him] to get on the ground. He put his hands up, and … shot him in the back of the head,†the man, Asar Amenra, told the Detroit Free Press.”
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Immediate release of video, end of story. Note during the slow-mo that the orange shirt guy shoots at policeman’s head from 3 feet away (and misses). This is police reality sometimes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjPO1sGN7OQ
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Press conference a day later.
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=590857098473357
Dale S,
You should give it a rest. Chauvin is going to jail. You’re not going to change that, no matter how many very long comments you write.
I think there are two different questions. One is whether Chauvin deserves to go to prison and the other is whether the jury will convict. They ought to have the same answer, but all four permutations are possible.
It is quite possible that Chauvin is not guilty. We can not say if he is or isn’t based on the information available.
It is certainly possible that the jury will find Chauvin guilty, even if only based on the emotional impact of the video. But juries are extremely reluctant to send cops to prison. So it would be foolish to claim to know the outcome.
Mike M,
“But juries are extremely reluctant to send cops to prison. So it would be foolish to claim to know the outcome.”
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The guy is a sociopath. He is going to prison. You want a friendly bet? Donation to your charity or mine.
SteveF,
And you know this how? Real question? At this point, all I’m willing to concede is that Chauvin used poor judgement. He should have known that at least one person would be making a video and that his actions would look bad. As I said above, given the drugs Floyd had taken, it’s not at all clear to me that he wouldn’t have died if he hadn’t been restrained at all.
Being a sociopath, AFAIK, isn’t a crime. Juries convict innocent people and let guilty people off. People plead guilty to crimes they didn’t commit because a jury trial can be a coin flip at best and they can’t afford a decent legal team or the prosecution is threatening others in their family.
For someone having trouble breathing, I would think a knee in the back would be more likely to do damage without actual strangulation, which usually damages the trachea and larynx and fractures the hyoid bone. Like a boa or python, you can breathe out, but not in. And again, I didn’t see anything in the ME’s report that indicated damage to the trachea or larynx, and he looked.
SteveF:
Put me down for $10.00. Or all my quatloos!
DeWitt,
“And you know this how?â€
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I watched the video. It is obvious. ‘sociopath’ is actually a quite generous description of Chauvin’s behavior. No normal person would ever behave that way. I have, of course, seen a few people behave that badly; they were sociopaths too. But they were not uniformed police officers. I think it is clear he should never have been a cop.
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Chauvin will go to prison, and I think it clear he should. Sometimes ‘beyond the pale’ has to be clearly defined, if only to discourage similar egregious behavior. This is one of those times. The ‘only following procedure’ defense is rubbish, and that is why he will go to prison. There is no excuse for his behavior, no matter official ‘procedures’. If he was ‘following procedure’ then those who set up those procedures need prison time as well. There can be no excuses; police must stop behaving this way.
RickA,
do you know the dollar-quatloo exchange rate?
Quatloos are hard to come by these days…
SteveF,
So we need nothing but touchy-feely cops? I don’t think so. The ability to use deadly force implies to me a certain lack of empathy that some might call sociopathic. I don’t, or at least I don’t care because if you can’t use deadly force when necessary, you shouldn’t be carrying a gun. The perp would probably take it away from you. This isn’t the UK. And even they have had firearms units in their territorial police forces since the 1990’s.
mmm. I don’t want a cop to be a sheep. I don’t want a cop to be a wolf. A sheepdog is best. But what does that really mean.
I want cops to be effective but not brutal. There’s a line there somewhere that I’m not scribbling exactly right yet.
DeWitt,
No, we don’t need touchy feely cops. We need cops who enforce the law. We also need cops who use the minimum force needed. That always precludes kneeling on the neck of an unconscious perp who is handcuffed. I honestly find it bizarre that even needs to be explained.
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As I have said before, Chauvin will go to prison, and IMO he is most deserving of that fate. No police department needs to have people like Chauvin, and people like Chauvin need to be removed from police departments ASAP.
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There are lots of suggestions how episodes of police brutality can be eliminated. But I think it is pretty simple: don’t hire sociopaths, and immediately get rid of any cop who shows a tendency for excessive use of force. Cops have to be like Ceasar’s wife. Unfortunately, too many are not remotely like that.
Here is an interesting take from a formed assistant director of the FBI (under Bush the younger). https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wpxi.com/news/investigates/former-fbi-assistant-director-derek-chauvin-showed-sociopathic-behavior-during-george-floyds-death/CZPF6OAP6RDJ7OUZDUCVF53X3U/%3foutputType=amp
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He now runs a business that evaluates police applicants. He says that some degree of sociopathy is found in about 7% of the general population, but that jumps to 40% among applicants to become police officers. Big problem.
SteveF Interesting take by assist Dir. I think it would be a useful exercise to use psychological tests to weed out violent police officers. Would have to compare tests used to other methods to see if violence can really be predicted.
On the other hand, I am suspicious about hs 40% estimate for sociopathy among police officers — very convenient in that it dovetails with his efforts to attract more clients who would need his services.
SteveF asks “do you know the dollar-quatloo exchange rate?”
Nope.
But to me they are priceless (grin).
SteveF, you call it sociopathic, but are ignoring the medical issues, that Chauvin and another officer both evaluated.
MikeN,
Ya, I guess more time kneeling on the neck of someone pleading for you to stop is motivated by a desire to help the victim. If a little time kneeling on someone’s neck is good, then a lot of time must be better…. especially after he is unconscious. I doubt the jury is going to buy that. The guy is a sociopath, and he will almost certainly go to jail. The two younger cops will probably walk. The other experienced cop may or may not get jail time, but my guess is he will.
Steve F,
“No, we don’t need touchy feely cops. We need cops who enforce the law. We also need cops who use the minimum force needed. That always precludes kneeling on the neck of an unconscious perp who is handcuffed. I honestly find it bizarre that even needs to be explained.”
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We don’t need cops who use the *minimum* force needed, we need cops who use the *optimal* force needed. That may not be the same thing in the case of perps who are a danger to others and/or themselves.
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My reaction to the video was the same of yours. Guy has trouble breathing, and callous cop kneels on his neck until he dies. You don’t need to be Conan Edogawa to think the cop was fully responsible for the death. The cop has to be a monster, not to mention wildly stupid, murdering a man in full view of bystanders while being taped — and the other three cops just watched him do it! Shades of Johnny Cash — “I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die.”
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But I wasn’t aware of other points that undercut that narrative — that Floyd was complaining about breathing *before* he was on the ground, that neck restraint was considered a valid restraint method by the MPD, that there is as yet no physical evidence that the restraint *actually* caused Floyd’s cardiopulmonary stoppage, and that between Floyd’s heart condition and his drug levels, no restraint is necessary to *explain* the stoppage. You haven’t bothered disputing *any* of these, you just point to the video — which doesn’t contradict any of them.
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And the odd thing is that the new information also has the effect of making Chauvin’s actions more *sensible*. Instead of committing a murder in plain view of everyone while being recorded, it has him taking actions that *he* might think has the highest probability of keeping him, his colleagues, and even Floyd safe from harm. He very well could be wrong, *badly* wrong, worrying about ExDS in someone who was just having a major health issue. He could still be callous. But he’s no longer a combination of being cartoonishly evil *and* mind-bogglingly stupid.
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As for the point that there’s no point in restraining an unconscious, handcuffed victim, I would agree if it’s guaranteed that he will *remain* unconscious. My wife’s a cardiac nurse, and she’s had to deal with heart patients who are in a drug or dementia-induced delirium. The equivalent of handcuffs is *not* sufficient, and depending on the level of delirium they are *more* constrained than Floyd, all appenges being secured to the bed — and those are *not* released when they lose consciousness, because the moment they regain consciousness they can be a danger to themselves and others. *IF* Floyd had really been in a drug-induced delirium (I’m not convinced this was the case) I see no issue with continuing safe restraint after he loses consciousness. Neck restraint doesn’t *look* safe, but that it *isn’t* safe needs to be shown, not assumed — and for Chauvin to be morally guilty of murder *he* needs to think it is NOT safe and that it will kill Floyd.
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I’m not doing this out of some theory that the cops are always right. My sister-in-law is a cop and I have sympathy for those doing that tough, dangerous job — but I also remember the bullet holes in my Grandad’s car where the Idaho Falls police fired on my Uncle Tim while driving it. I want justice, and justice means not just looking at one piece of evidence and ignore any other evidence that undercuts my initial assumptions.
I will wait for the trial to sort out all this evidence and find guilt or not guilty.
But I am getting ready for more riots.
RickA,
“But I am getting ready for more riots.â€
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At least you’ll have plenty of time. The start of the trial is tentatively scheduled for next March, and long delays between now and then remain possible, if not likely. I will be surprised if a verdict is handed down much before this time next year. Chauvin could also plea guilty to a lesser charge, but given the pressure on the progressive politicians who run Minnesota, any reduction from 3rd degree murder seems unlikely. I would not be surprised if the other three cops took a plea deal to lesser charges to avoid trial if the offered jail time was minimal.
SteveF (Comment #187677): “Ya, I guess more time kneeling on the neck of someone pleading for you to stop is motivated by a desire to help the victim.”
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That is entirely possible. People in excited delirium often inflict significant damage on themselves. Restraining them can serve to protect them from themselves. I won’t go on since Dale S has done such a good job.
SteveF:
Oh haven’t you heard. They added a 2nd degree murder charge. A felony murder charge I believe. At least the 3rd degree didn’t require intent. Based on the facts I have read, there is literally no chance Chauvin will be convicted of 2nd or 3rd degree murder. Manslaughter is doubtful, but just barely possible.
But I agree – it is unlikely they will plead down from 2nd or 3rd to just manslaughter. The mob would burn the city down (again).
But yes – plenty of time to get ready.
Lucia,
Be on the lookout up there near Chicago…
…for the Census Cowboy! Riding into a neighborhood near you to shame people for their shoddy census compliance!
mark,
That’s in the city! I think it’s funny. It might work. Who knows?
Jeff Sessions gave his concession speech. What a pity we didn’t select him tonight in Alabama to run against Doug Jones.
Oh well. But a gracious and gentlemanly speech congratulating his opponent on a campaign well run delivered with all apparent sincerity, it seems like I haven’t hear anything like this recently. It’s refreshing.
Mark Bofill,
I suspect Sessions lost for two reasons:
1) He recused himself from ‘Russia!’ and oversight of Muller, then
2) did not immediately resign…. leaving Trump to suffer the consequences for Muller’s endless witch hunt.
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My only criticism of Sessions is that he did not appear to recognize how opposed to Trump most of the people at Justice were, and the problems that would cause…. remember that the man in charge of Muller was suggesting removal of Trump by the Cabinet for mental illness within weeks of him entering office.
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Sessions is a honest and decent gentleman, but Trump needed a Republican version of Eric Holder, who would stop at nothing to protect Obama, not an honest gentleman.
Steve,
I don’t disagree. Well, it is what it is at this point. Hopefully Tuberville can take on Jones and win. We shall see.
Lucia,
It is funny. You’re right, maybe it will help.
shrug.
SteveF (Comment #187755): “Sessions is a honest and decent gentleman, but Trump needed a Republican version of Eric Holder, who would stop at nothing to protect Obama, not an honest gentleman.”
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No, what Trump needed was Bill Barr: an honest, by the book bulldog. A Republican holder would have just poured gasoline on the fire. Even Barr is generating tremendous abuse.
MikeM,
Yes, you are right, Barr would be better than a Republican version of Eric Holder. But in any case, Sessions should have resigned as soon as he recused himself. That crippled him, and left Trump to the Justice Department and FBI wolves; Sessions basically couldn’t do his job correctly.
Sessions’s recusal was probably necessary. However, given that Russia was a counterintelligence investigation and not criminal, he could have limited his recusal to certain things. The special counsel regulations are for criminal investigations giving Sessions even more room for oversight. They would have had to make clear from the beginning that Mueller was investigating obstruction of justice, which would have neutralized the political damage.
Sessions resigning would not have affected Mueller, since a replacement would have had to give certain assurances to get confirmed.
MikeN,
“Sessions resigning would not have affected Mueller, since a replacement would have had to give certain assurances to get confirmed.”
I don’t know.
Sessions recuses: March 2, 2017
Comey fired: May 9
Mueller appointed: May 17
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Sessions recused himself on March 2, 2017. Had Sessions resigned immediately, Rosenstein as DAG would have automatically become acing AG. Although here is legal debate about if the president can legally assign a different acting AG, he did so when Sessions did finally resign in 2018, and the courts might be reluctant to get involved in such a sticky wicket had Sessions resigned immediately and Trump appointed an acting AG rather than Rosenstein.
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In any case, there would have been plenty of time after March 2, but before Comey was fired on May 7, for someone like Barr (who already confirmed for AG by the Senate years ago) to have been confirmed and take over DOJ. I very much doubt Barr would have appointed someone like Muller…. if he agreed to appoint anyone at all. Certainly Barr would not have allowed Mueller’s gang of marauders to barge through everything Trump for years.
SteveF, good point. I forgot Comey wasn’t fired yet.
Mark Bofill “Jeff Sessions gave his concession speech. What a pity we didn’t select him tonight in Alabama to run against Doug Jones.”
In a lot of ways I am OK with Sessions. However, he made a huge mistake in appointing Rod Rosenstein who has to be the worst lawyer in the history of the world. The FBI had possession of a document stating that the Steele Dossier was gossip in January of 2017, and it was the basic predicate for Mueller’s “investigation.” How he could not double check the FBI’s work and let the fishing expedition go on for 20 months (with 3 more fraudulent FISA’s filed) based on nothing is beyond belief to me.
Maybe, he was a secret never Trumper.
JDOhio,
There is nothing secret about it… he wanted Trump removed from office in January 2017. He discussed the 25th amendment and asked if Pence and the cabinet would agree to remove Trump. As I have said several times before, when a president of a different party assumes office, every person at every Federal agency who the new president can fire should be gone the day of inauguration. There is zero reason to keep them around, and it is crazy to let them stay and undermine the new administration’s policies.