When hundreds of parents raised religious ob-jections, the Board for the first time eliminated notice and opt-outs—directing administrators and teachers
that parents could no longer be notified when the books were taught or be allowed to opt their children out. The Board’s own documents reveal that its goal in compelling children to participate in this instruction is to “disrupt” their “either/or thinking” on gender and sexuality. And the Board concedes that children may “come away from [such] instruction with a new perspective not easily contravened by their parents.
There is a movement for school vouchers because of all this activism. Most people would be satisfied if their public school basically used the lowest common denominator for cultural influence. That’s the way I remember it, total nothing burger, with the exception of evolution.
The people who run for school boards and politics in general tend to be activists. Sometimes i think our government would be much better off if positions were randomly assigned to citizens.
This is from the defendant (school board)
Teachers are expected to fold them into the curriculum as they would any other book: They can put the storybooks on shelves for students to find themselves, recommend a particular storybook to a student who would enjoy it, read the storybooks aloud, or offer them as an option for reading groups.
Pet.App.604a-605a.
“Read alouds” means kids cannot avoid the book. Elementary school childen are generally expected to pay attention when a teacher reads aloud. If the kid is assigned to read it aloud, that’s a lot of interaction foe the kid.
As or “option” for reading groups : that’s assigned reading.
Indeed, a guidance document for teachers states that “[n]o child who does not agree with or under-stand another student’s gender, expression, or their sex-ual identity is asked to change how they feel about it.”
But if the book itself advocates students should change how the feel about it, then this advocacy is happening in the classroom.
After the storybooks were introduced, some parents requested that their children be excused from class
when the storybooks were read or discussed. Pet.App.606a. Some opt-out requests were religion-based and others were not.
The parents are asking for opt-outs only when the book is read or discussed. They aren’t asking for the book to not be on a shelf or for other kids not to get to read it.
If it’s read and discussed, that’s quite a bit of interaction.
At first, teachers and principals sought to accommo-date these requests by excusing students when the
books were read in class. Pet.App.606a-607a. The grow-ing number of opt-out requests, however, gave rise to three related concerns: high student absenteeism, the in-feasibility of administering opt-outs across classrooms and schools, and the risk of exposing students who be-lieve the storybooks represent them and their families to social stigma and isolation.
The reason they are not allowing optouts is too many people want them! (That’s pretty hilareous actually.)
I also think Roberts has, in the past, pointed out that free freedom of religion is in the constitution. Freedom from social stigma or isolation is not. I mean… that might be sad. But it seems to me that board doesn’t really care if some people are stigmatized socially. They just don’t like a particular group ( i.e. trans) to be stigmatized socially.
The court thus explained that, “to show a cognizable burden” on religious exercise, peti-tioners were required to “show that the absence of an opt-out opportunity coerces them or their children to be-lieve or act contrary to their religious views.” Pet.App.31a. That coercion could be “direct or indirect.”
Id.
But in the case of the Roman Catholics, not allowing the opt out does coerce those parents to act contrary to their religious views. According to their religious views Catholics are supposed to shield their kids from certain topics presented unnecessarily and too early an age.
“otherwise affirmatively act in vio-
lation of their religious beliefs.” Id.
Allowing their kids to be exposed to certain believes would be an affirmative act that violates RC religious beliefs. That would mean parents who do this are affirmatively acting in violation of those RC believes. (There are how many RC justices?) I get Sotomoyor may allow this bit of belief to escape her, but it’s pretty long standing. (Yeah… fallen away RC here. But I like to read RC trivia.)
I don’t think a parent can ask for an opt-out because they don’t like the general morality of what the duly elected school board has approved, they need to either run for the school board or elect better representatives.
The religious exception is something they can legally ask for. I imagine plenty of secular parents aren’t too happy about this either. Once the opt-out is allowed I suppose anybody can do it.
However raising a gigantic stink about it is also usually enough. Who wants that headache for trans story time? Montgomery county defending this all the way to the SC wasn’t too wise IMO. I can see some board members facing some tough reelection races.
“gave rise to three related concerns: high student absenteeism”
This ended up being a red herring. Somebody actually looked into this claim and high absenteeism was due to the usual stuff and had nothing to do with this issue. They county immediately folded when challenged by Kavanaugh or Alito on this.
CNN: “Some US allies are highly alarmed by the president’s plan to let Russia keep most of the land it has seized from Ukraine”
OK. What’s their plan? I also wish that wouldn’t happen but a wish is not an army that will push Russia out of Ukraine.
Tom Scharf wrote: “I don’t think a parent can ask for an opt-out because they don’t like the general morality of what the duly elected school board has approved, they need to either run for the school board or elect better representatives.”
That sounds like the solution is to win a culture war. Or maybe a civil war.
Kenneth has a MUCH better solution: Allow parents to choose where their kids go to school.
Mike M,
Or move somewhere else, where crazy lefties don’t sit on the local school board.
I suspect it is inevitable that school boards (and all local elected positions) are more likely to be occupied by people who to want to impose a certain value system on public policies. Some places those values don’t generate much pushback because they are reasonably inoffensive and reasonably evenhanded. This is a case where the board is not being at all evenhanded and imposing values quite offensive to many people. The SC will smack down the school board. That won’t end the conflict, any more than the SC can stop Harvard from discriminating based on race.
On a different subject: The fellow who runs my wife’s non-profit sewing school in Haiti contacted my wife today by email and said criminal gangs now control 3/4 of the capitol of Port au Prince. and people are fleeing the gang controlled areas to the remaining non-gang area….. which is shrinking daily. Shipping goods/materials to the school is currently just about impossible.
It sounds like total social collapse in Haiti may not be far away.
Tom Scharf,
I think once opt out is allowed for religious reasons, pretty much anyone will have access to it. Technically it might not be required, but otherwise the school personnel are going to have to say the parent’s claim about their religious belief is not in good faith. How are they going to go about figuring out which parents are making good faith assertions about their religious beliefs? That really would be unworkable. “You don’t even go to church!” isn’t considered much in the way of evidence.
Also, it’s going to be impossible for the school to achieve their goal of increasing “acceptance” of trans kids if numerous students are stepping out of the class. If 1/4 of the kids in class are opting out, the other kids are going to ask why. It becomes difficult for the teacher to not talk about the fact that many people disagree with some of the ideas in the book. After all, that’s why the other kids aren’t in the class!!!
Lucia’s post:
“Allowing their kids to be exposed to certain believes would be an affirmative act that violates RC religious beliefs. That would mean parents who do this are affirmatively acting in violation of those RC believes. “
In my entire twelve years of Roman Catholic education I managed to not learn that rule.
Then I put two sons through eight years of Catholic education and four of public schools and never once checked their math books for blasphemy.
I’ll be goin’ straight to hell.
The judge who issued the protection order for the “Maryland Bro” did not make an error by not referring to El Salvador for protection in the protective order. When he referred to Guatemala, he ment Guatemala.
On rereading the order, I found :
Family moved from El Salvador to Guatemala
Family received death threats in Guatemala
No changed circumstances in Guatemala
Order bars subject from being deported to Guatemala
In my entire twelve years of Roman Catholic education I managed to not learn that rule.
And yet it is one. Teachers do not introduce young children to heresies. You wait to discuss heresies until they are older and even then, generally only those delving deeply bother to do it.
Few learn it’s actually a rule to not introduce and discuss heretical idea as a method of better understanding the non-heretical ones. But it is.
Can I find this rule now? Nope. But it is one.
I mean seriously: did you have any classes on “The history of heresies” in Catholic grade school? Arian through Zorastrian? I bet not. Those heresies are very interesting and clarify what the heck the Apostle’s creed even means. But no one has that class until possibly college level.
The teachers didn’t announce and explain why you don’t have classes about the heresies in k-12. But they don’t have them.
Lucia, Your post:
“I mean seriously: did you have any classes on “The history of heresies” in Catholic grade school? “
No, not in Catholic grade school. But I attend a special college preparatory Catholic High school, taught by the Christian Brothers of St. John Baptist de La Salle:
Pittsburgh Central Catholic:
“To inspire boys to become Men of Faith, Men of Scholarship, Men of Service.” https://www.centralcatholichs.com/pages/mission-history
Religion was a core class required all four years [as was two years of Latin!].
We studied many religions and heresies. Once I did a term paper on Judaism that required research in a Jewish library. [The Rabbis were delighted to help!]
The Catholic Church has been writing laws for 2,000 years, most of which have been lost in time.
I had a 5th grade teacher who read books to the class, all focused on the horrors and evil nature of slavery and racism. In no way was this part of any formal curriculum…. he was trying to convince the students of a specific moral point of view, no matter what they heard at home; in the early 60’s racism wasn’t that uncommon. The book reading never took place when an administrator sat in to evaluate the teacher.
Lucia’s post talking about Catholic education into the heresies reminded me of our studies of the Protestant Reformation.
There is a great parallel to today.
One reason the two great heresies of the Reformation spread so quickly was the invention of the printing press: https://credomag.com/2020/11/how-the-invention-of-the-printing-press-helped-advance-the-reformation/
It is similar to how today’s revolution in social media changed political campaigns in the US.
Russell,
paper on Judaism that required research in a Jewish library.
Judaism is not a heresy.
[as was two years of Latin!].
Latin is also not heresy.
Religion was a core class required all four years
Also not a heresy.
Did you write any papers on Zorastrian Heresy? Or the Nestorian Heresy? Or the beliefs of the Abigensians (i.e. Cathars?)
The public viewing of Pope Francis is taking place at St. Peter’s Basilica in Vatican City. It is being broadcast live on:
Vatican Media Live https://www.youtube.com/live/J6MqpK91bEA?si=K6SXgZgc8CNzHCFF
Some of the Gregorian Chants [Catholic Latin Hymns] are beautiful.
Funeral services will be broadcast livestarting at 10 AM [Rome Time] tomorrow.
Lucia;
“Did you write any papers on Zorastrian Heresy? Or the Nestorian Heresy? Or the beliefs of the Abigensians (i.e. Cathars?)”
No, and I don’t recall those but it was 50 years ago.
I do recall quite a lot [probably a semester] on the heresies of the Protestant Reformation. There was no hesitancy on the part of the Brothers to discuss this and delve into current Protestant religions.
Your basis:
“Few learn it’s actually a rule to not introduce and discuss heretical idea as a method of better understanding the non-heretical ones. But it is.”
is pure bunk.
Russell,
No, and I don’t recall those but it was 50 years ago.
But you recall writing one about Judaism.
The protestant reformation can’t be dealt with by ignoring. All the changes in government and the killings during fairly modern history can’t be ignored, so the fact that it had to do with religious beliefs can’t be ignored. So by high school addressing discussing the reformation is “necessary”.
Avoiding unnecessary discussions of things that violate the religion when students are too young is “the rule”. It’s not unlike the general rule of “age appropriate” in secular schools– it’s just that it applies to things that are specifically religious in nature.
is pure bunk.
Nope. You did not study the Albigensian heresy. Nor the Zoroastrian heresy. You are simply unaware that it’s “not done”.
Lucia,
I can find no Canon Law against the study of Heresy as a way of understanding. Show me the text if you have it.
So, I ask Grok.
Grok on Canon Law and Studying Heresy
“ The Church encourages scholarly study of heresy to understand historical, theological, and pastoral implications. This is evident in the works of theologians like St. Augustine or St. Thomas Aquinas, who analyzed heresies (e.g., Arianism, Gnosticism) to defend orthodox doctrine.”
“Cautions: Engaging with heretical texts directly (e.g., Gnostic gospels) requires discernment to avoid undermining faith. Canon Law indirectly supports this through canons on censorship of books (Canons 822–832), which urge caution with materials that could harm faith or morals.”
Full Canon Law analysis: https://grok.com/share/bGVnYWN5_9afb1a72-a48d-47e5-8119-e83b3594baa5
Russell,
The Church encourages scholarly study of heresy
I wrote this is only when you are older.
Note what I actually wrote
According to their religious views Catholics are supposed to shield their kids from certain topics presented unnecessarily and too early an age.
Also
scholarly study
Kids in k-5th grade are not doing “scholarly study”.
Also, when you do introduce heresies, you must teach that the are wrong ideas.
This is google AI
AI Overview
Learn more
In Roman Catholic theology, teaching children about heresies, or beliefs that contradict established doctrine, can be a valid part of religious education. This approach allows students to critically examine their faith, understand the history of the Church, and strengthen their own understanding of the Catholic faith by seeing how heresies have been refuted. However, it’s crucial to present heresies in a way that emphasizes their refutation by the Church’s teachings and avoids causing confusion or undermining the student’s faith.
Why Teach Heresies?
Critical Thinking:
Examining heresies encourages critical thinking about faith and helps students understand how the Church’s teachings are defended against alternative interpretations.
Understanding Church History:
Studying heresies provides insights into the historical development of Catholic doctrine and how the Church has responded to challenges.
Strengthening Faith: By understanding how heresies are refuted, students can strengthen their own faith and commitment to the Church’s teachings.
Discernment:
Learning about heresies helps students develop the ability to discern true teachings from false ones, a skill essential for navigating the world.
How to Teach Heresies Effectively:
Emphasize Refutation:
Always present heresies in the context of their refutation by the Church’s official teachings.
Provide Context:
Explain the historical context in which the heresy arose and the reasons why the Church condemned it.
Focus on Truth:
Clearly and repeatedly emphasize the truth of the Catholic faith and the reasons why it is the true and enduring teaching.
Use Critical Thinking Tools:
Encourage students to ask questions, analyze arguments, and engage in thoughtful discussion about the different perspectives.
Note: Students are absolutely not to get the “wrong answer”.
Be Sensitive:
Be mindful of the potential for confusion or discouragement and ensure that students are presented with the information in a way that is clear, respectful, and encouraging.
Example:
When teaching about Arianism (the belief that Jesus was not fully God), a teacher could explain how this heresy arose, the arguments made by Arians, and then clearly present the Church’s Council of Nicaea’s definition of the divinity of Jesus Christ. This would allow students to see how the Church’s teachings are grounded in scripture and tradition and why Arianism was rejected.
Catholics would not allow heresies to be taught without discussing that they are wrong. They also don’t discuss these when the kids are too young to “reason” or “pseudo reason”. (I mean… clearly, it’s “pseudo reasoning” if you are required to come to the ‘realization’ that Catholic teachings are the correct ones.)
Russell
“Cautions: Engaging with heretical texts directly (e.g., Gnostic gospels) requires discernment to avoid undermining faith. Canon Law indirectly supports this through canons on censorship of books (Canons 822–832), which urge caution with materials that could harm faith or morals.”
You know who doesn’t have “discernment”? Kindergardeners.
From yur cannons
§2. Books which regard questions pertaining to sacred scripture, theology, canon law, ecclesiastical history, and religious or moral disciplines cannot be used as texts on which instruction is based in elementary, middle, or higher schools unless they have been published with the approval of competent ecclesiastical authority or have been approved by it subsequently.
§3. It is recommended that books dealing with the matters mentioned in §2, although not used as texts in instruction, as well as writings which especially concern religion or good morals are submitted to the judgment of the local ordinary.
§4. Books or other writings dealing with questions of religion or morals cannot be exhibited, sold, or distributed in churches or oratories unless they have been published with the permission of competent ecclesiastical authority or approved by it subsequently.
Lucia,
I don’t have time to study that now. I’ll look at it later. Do you have any references to Canon Law that I didn’t find?
Ed Forbes,
The judge granted Garcia’s motion for withholding of removal. Do you know if that motion specified El Salvador or Guatemala?
If the latter, then the administration could make the whole thing disappear with a wave of a motion. They have not. Of course, it could be that Trump is following Napoleon’s advice to never interrupt the enemy when he is making a mistake.
Russell,
Do you have any references to Canon Law that I didn’t find?
I showed you that the references you found tell the faithful that their children’s education should not include texts whose moral teachings are not approved by eclesiastical authorities.
The books in question include teachings that would fall in the category of “moral”. Not only are these books not approved by any ecclesiastical authority, they clearly contain “moral” teaching that are repugnant to Catholics and easily recognized by parents as such.
I don’t know what more you want from Cannon law. It seems to be the ones you found show precisely what I claimed.
Russell,
I guess if the parents wanted more fire power they could follow the dictates of §3 and submit the books and the guidelines to teachers to their “local ordinary” and see what they have to say. I’m pretty sure we know what the “local ordinary” would say.
When I called them “your cannons” they were the numbers mentioned in your Grok link==822-833
You will also find a special requirement that parents attend to the christian education of their children
Can. 226
…
§2. Since they have given life to their children, parents have a most grave obligation and possess the right to educate them. Therefore, it is for Christian parents particularly to take care of the Christian education of their children according to the doctrine handed on by the Church.
Parents don’t get a pass on letting the kids be led into immoral teachings just because the public school thinks something is right.
Christians must announce and defend their doctrine
Can. 229 §1. Lay persons are bound by the obligation and possess the right to acquire knowledge of Christian doctrine appropriate to the capacity and condition of each in order for them to be able to live according to this doctrine, announce it themselves, defend it if necessary, and take their part in exercising the apostolate.
To the extent that teaching that believing you were born in the “wrong body” or “wrong sex” violates Catholic teachings, based on the above, parents are obligated to prevent their children from being taught the opposite.
Can. 795 Since true education must strive for complete formation of the human person that looks to his or her final end as well as to the common good of societies, children and youth are to be nurtured in such a way that they are able to develop their physical, moral, and intellectual talents harmoniously, acquire a more perfect sense of responsibility and right use of freedom, and are formed to participate actively in social life.
To the extent that teaching its moral to believe God gave you the wrong body violates Catholic teaching, permitting your kids to be taught that when they are too young is not “nurtur[ing] in such a way that they are able to develop their physical, moral, and intellectual talents harmoniously, …”
Can. 796
§2. Parents must cooperate closely with the teachers of the schools to which they entrust their children to be educated; moreover, teachers in fulfilling their duty are to collaborate very closely with parents, who are to be heard willingly and for whom associations or meetings are to be established and highly esteemed.
Parents can’t just let the teachers do… whatever…
Can. 798 Parents are to entrust their children to those schools which provide a Catholic education. If they are unable to do this, they are obliged to take care that suitable Catholic education is provided for their children outside the schools.
If the school is providing teachings contrary to a Catholic education, the parents must spend time telling the kids the school is wrong.
Can. 799 The Christian faithful are to strive so that in civil society the laws which regulate the formation of youth also provide for their religious and moral education in the schools themselves, according to the conscience of the parents.
The parents kinda sort of have to object to immoral teachings, and perhaps sue the school board. . .
All in all: parents can’t just passively allow schools to subject their kids to immoral teachings. Although if they have no other choice, they can tell their kids the teachers are wrong (and must do so), they are required to strive to engage with the teachers or school and get things changed.
The people who run for school boards and politics in general tend to be activists. Sometimes i think our government would be much better off if positions were randomly assigned to citizens.
Bingo.
There were thoughts early in our nations history when serving in elected government positions was consider more of a duty/burden than a privilege. It was get my duty over so I can get back to my business, trade or profession.
As for local elections for school boards, my experiences are in line with Tom’s comment. I would add that those voting regularly in those elections tend to have political agendas.
I listened to comments from those running for school board positions in a forum sponsored by the League of Woman Voters. The incumbents had bs comments in efforts to hide their agendas. The two young ladies for whom I voted were not incumbents and commented about problems that the other candidates ignored. Unfortunately incumbents win most elections in my locale simply by being incumbents.
William F. Buckley: “I should sooner live in a society governed by the first two thousand names in the Boston telephone directory than in a society governed by the two thousand faculty members of Harvard University.”
Kenneth Fritsch wrote: “those voting regularly in those elections tend to have political agendas … incumbents had bs comments in efforts to hide their agendas … incumbents win most elections in my locale simply by being incumbents”.
I suspect that most incumbents win by serving the agendas of the activists who often exert so much influence in local elections. Incumbent hide their agendas because revealing them would motivate people to vote and drown out the activists.
Lucia, I appreciate your dive into Canon Law and Russell as adversario.
I wonder how many parents today have the interest in their children’s education as Canon Law prescibes – and even good Catholics. They might think they have little control and thus send their kids to school and hope for the best. They would or should have at least retained influence over what their children see and hear about morals and principles of a good life and put them in a position to be able to chose what ideas from school to accept or deny.
Kenneth,
I first became interested in this issue of teachers teaching things when I took “20th century problems” as a religion class in high school. This was last semester senior year. The nun has “plans”, which were not working out because largely owing to me, two of the other students were not making the “right conclusions”.
Mid-semester, she dropped the topics she planned and we just switched to rote doctrine stuff. Literally memorizing the holy days of obligation. She told us she couldn’t continue to class if we…. uhmm…. well basically came to the wrong conclusions. ( I had, fwiw, pretty much suggested she was trying to insist on pre-ordained conclusions. She eventually admitted it when she decreed she couldn’t stick to the plan of these topics any more.)
I know one of the things was whether we could know there was objective right and wrong and how. (It’s ‘supposed’ to come from God. Cultural norms is the wrong answer. I didn’t think that was the answer either. But from god? No. I didn’t think that.)
Mike M.
I cannot find the reference but shortly after Buckley made the comment about the first 2,000 names in the Boston Phone Book, someone analyzed the list and found (IIRC and may not) that the first 2’000 names were largely Irish Catholic. I doubt that the Harvard faculty has ever been largely Irish Catholic.
For younger children—typically those of elementary or middle school age—the Church generally discourages the study of heresy. At this stage, the focus is on catechesis, the religious instruction that teaches the fundamentals of the Catholic faith, such as the sacraments, the life of Christ, and the Ten Commandments. The Church emphasizes that parents, as the primary educators (Canon 226 and Canon 793 of the Code of Canon Law), have the duty to ensure their children receive proper formation in the faith. Introducing heretical ideas to young children could risk confusing them or weakening their understanding of Catholic teachings, potentially leading to what the Church calls “scandal”—actions or ideas that might lead someone to sin or doubt their faith. Therefore, the priority is to build a strong, age-appropriate grounding in orthodoxy before exposing them to contrary beliefs.
I’ll skip older children because Mahmoud is about younger children. (K-5th grade) Russell objected to my discussion which was about younger children, not adults or even teens.
Conclusion
In summary, the Roman Catholic Church generally discourages children from studying heresy, particularly younger children, to ensure they first develop a strong foundation in Catholic doctrine. For older children, such study may be allowed as part of their education, but only under careful guidance and in a manner that strengthens their faith. This cautious, developmental approach reflects the Church’s commitment to safeguarding the spiritual formation of its youngest members while preparing them to navigate a complex world of ideas as they mature.
Even if many Roman Catholics are not aware of it (and some– possibly especially those who went to Roman Catholic schools k-12), the RC church discourages even exposing children to heretical ideas when they are too young. The reason those who went to Catholic school are less likely to be aware of this is that the school simply does not bring up heresies in elementary school. So there are no “controversies” about what teachers are teaching when the kids get home from schools. Those who went to RC schools and did not develop any particular interest in any heresy– did not fall away blah, blah blah are often pretty unaware of the position on teaching this stuff because it was a non-issue to their life.
But it is, in fact, the case that if a RC parent has a young kid in public school and the school starts advocating or teaching heresies, the RC parent has a big problem and the parent is supposed to take action.
Roman Catholic parents letting their young kid sit in class and intentionally taught or exposed to heresies technically does violate cannon law. So saying this would violate their faith isn’t attributing to them some sort of odd controversial views.
I would guess that even if many Catholics are blithely unaware of this Roberts, Coney-Barret, Alito and Thomas are very aware of it. Sotomoyor should be. Gorsuch is protestant but was sent to Catholic schools. He may also know this.
I suspect we’ll read a lot of language on what “expose” means. It’s probably not going to be just having a book on the shelf, nor someone blurting something unplanned out. But structured lessons using books that take points of view that violate someone’s religion is different from some passing statement.
And there is nothing to balance– the teacher or school district don’t have some “right” to teach others that gender is not binary!
I’m looking at cited cases and examining similarities and differences with the parents complaintg in Mahmoud. I’ll put in comments as I read them.
Parents did not want their kids to read stories about mental telepathy or magic because that violated their religion.
Similar: to Mahmoud. Kids just read.
Difference to Mahmoud: Teachers almost certainly were not claiming mental telepathy was real. No one claims they were encouraging students to believe in ESP. The purpose in introducing the books is not specifically to broaden the children’s minds to the idea that ESP is a real thing. There is/was no significant political movement advocating that ESP or magic is real. It is almost certainly the case that all the teachers consider the idea that characters have psychic powers is fiction.
Possible difference. There are 14 kids in Mozert; I can only find the age range of one. That was a 6th grader. The kids in Mahmoud include kindergarteners. As kids age, they develop the ability to express disagreements.
United States District Court, E.D. Tennessee, Northeastern Division. ruling: the kids got to opt out of the reading program.
Sixth circuit: They don’t get to opt out of reading. The case didn’t go any further.
Wikipedia:
This case set further precedent for the free expression clause used in public schools. It allows for state schools to teach controversial religious material to students, provided that they are not endorsing, condoning, or in any way encouraging either the belief or expression, or any aspect of a student’s faith.
In Mahmoud, the parents highlight teacher prep material that trains teachers to push back on the idea that being gay, or transgender is, in some way, wrong.
____
If (likely when) SCOTUS rules against the school board in Mahmoud, and don’t think they will have any trouble pointing out the differences in the level of “compulsion”. The school board in Mahmoud almost certainly is trying to instill values with respect to the particular religious views under discussion. The one in Mozert…. no.
But first, he briefly points out how unreasonable that dogmatism is:
What explains this fervent dogmatism? After all, it is possible to be for trade liberalization in some industries or in some eras and for protectionism of various kinds in others. Tariffs, for example, have different uses; they can be used to raise revenue; as a bargaining chip in negotiations to open foreign markets; or to protect national industries against foreign competition, in the interest of national security or domestic economic diversification and growth. Tariffs are merely instruments of economic statecraft, like taxes of other kinds, tax deductions and exemptions, direct grants, regulations, price controls, capital controls, financial sanctions, public ownership, and other tools of government, all of which are appropriate in some cases and not in others. The only rational answer to the question of whether free trade or protection is the best policy is: it depends.
The most striking moment at the funeral for me was the Byzantine Archbishops chanting the ‘Christos anesti’ in Greek while their Patriarch swings incense around the Pope’s casket.
Video: https://x.com/jkenney/status/1916325366697730093?s=61&t=7w4bCW3a8ve2DqoeniQatQ
Notice the elaborate bejeweled headgear on some of them. They are often referred to as Greek Catholics. They are in full communion with the Roman Catholics. Their priests can marry.
Once each year, my entire high school would attend mass at The Greek Catholic cathedral In Pittsburgh.
Wait, I said that wrong; married men can be ordained as Greek Catholic priests, though priests cannot marry after ordination.
Russel,
Incense waving is cool.
Lucia,
Almost makes up for all the BS
Can’t access the site from my mobile. Complains about an invalid SSL certificate, error 526. Tried multiple browsers. Tried just http, but even with secure connections turned off, it switches to https.
Lucia’s incense post reminded me of a joke from my alter boy days….
The priest instructs the alter boy;
When I sing during the service ‘and the angels lit the candles’ you come out and light the candles.
So, during the service, the priest sings:
“And the angels lit the candles”
And nothing happened, so the priest again sings:
“ And the angels lit the candles”
And after a few moments, the altar boy from back in the sacristy sings:
“And the cat pissed on the matches”
I’m trying to get something sorted out with the SSL certificate. It’s been an issue, and things are touchy since I requested one at Dreamhost. There seems to be a Dreamhost/Cloudflare issue.
I have a ticket in. Dreamhost replied. We’ll be trying to get this sorted out.
Lucia, a few days I had the exact same error message on my windows desktop. I just cut and paste the URL from my iPad and I haven’t had any trouble since.
Huzzah! Thanks for sorting this out Lucia.
That certification error message kept me out of this site on my comnputer, my table and phone and just this PM am I getting back in.
It seems my phone didn’t have the certificate problem but my computers did. odd. I use Chrome, but also tried Firefox and both hung on the certificate.
“Tariffs are merely instruments of economic statecraft, like taxes of other kinds, tax deductions and exemptions, direct grants, regulations, price controls, capital controls, financial sanctions, public ownership, and other tools of government, all of which are appropriate in some cases and not in others. The only rational answer to the question of whether free trade or protection is the best policy is: it depends.”
Today I’ll be a socialist and tomorrow a capitalist and maybe next week a fascist: it depends. Situational dogmatism.
My daughter-in-law’s mother married a former Catholic priest who wrote a book that ended with the reuniting of the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches. Reading it I learned a few things I did not know just as was the case with the Canon Law discussion here.
I haven’t seen the site in about 2 days due to the SSL error. I think I only tried on my PC, not on the phone.
I too was frozen out for lack of a ‘valid certificate’. Both phone and desktop.
Interesting observation: one adamant non-believer on this thread appears to know 10x more about Catholicism than most practicing Catholics. Seems ironic, and a little funny.
Hamas is now offering to release all prisoners in exchange for 5 years of cease-fire, AKA liberty to re-arm, dig tunnels and plan more attacks on Israel. Oddly enough, Israel shows no interest. They will not stop until Hamas is gone. Another year? Hard to say.
I Ukraine, there seems little prospect for a cease-fire in the near term, and even less prospect for anything except a cease-fire combined with a ‘frozen conflict’ long term. Unfortunately, the killing will continue for a while.
I did manage to write more code in the last couple of days that I otherwise would have. 😉
I was out for a few days due to a SSL error.
Thanks for supporting the site Lucia.
My Dad finally moved to Florida so I have been to church a couple times lately. It’s about the same as I remember. The priest was pretty good down here, makes a big difference.
They need to be very careful here, if it comes off as elite universities resisting the will of the public (funding) then it may further erode support for higher education. I think they live in a bubble and are bound to screw this up big time.
The certificate problem was on and off. It may or may not be fully vanquished. If it recurrs, it’s not you. It should be fixed soon though.
Au contrair SteveF.
Some sort of Ukraine truce in next 2 weeks.
Hamas ? No idea.
Big issue is Iran and if a strike will occur when Ukraine out of the way.
Only guessing
https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/24/24-297/351193/20250304160341072_Mahmoud%20Merits%20Opening%20Brief%20FINAL%20REVISED.pdf
This is from the plaintiff’s brief.
There is a movement for school vouchers because of all this activism. Most people would be satisfied if their public school basically used the lowest common denominator for cultural influence. That’s the way I remember it, total nothing burger, with the exception of evolution.
The people who run for school boards and politics in general tend to be activists. Sometimes i think our government would be much better off if positions were randomly assigned to citizens.
This is from the defendant (school board)
“Read alouds” means kids cannot avoid the book. Elementary school childen are generally expected to pay attention when a teacher reads aloud. If the kid is assigned to read it aloud, that’s a lot of interaction foe the kid.
As or “option” for reading groups : that’s assigned reading.
But if the book itself advocates students should change how the feel about it, then this advocacy is happening in the classroom.
The parents are asking for opt-outs only when the book is read or discussed. They aren’t asking for the book to not be on a shelf or for other kids not to get to read it.
If it’s read and discussed, that’s quite a bit of interaction.
The reason they are not allowing optouts is too many people want them! (That’s pretty hilareous actually.)
I also think Roberts has, in the past, pointed out that free freedom of religion is in the constitution. Freedom from social stigma or isolation is not. I mean… that might be sad. But it seems to me that board doesn’t really care if some people are stigmatized socially. They just don’t like a particular group ( i.e. trans) to be stigmatized socially.
But in the case of the Roman Catholics, not allowing the opt out does coerce those parents to act contrary to their religious views. According to their religious views Catholics are supposed to shield their kids from certain topics presented unnecessarily and too early an age.
Allowing their kids to be exposed to certain believes would be an affirmative act that violates RC religious beliefs. That would mean parents who do this are affirmatively acting in violation of those RC believes. (There are how many RC justices?) I get Sotomoyor may allow this bit of belief to escape her, but it’s pretty long standing. (Yeah… fallen away RC here. But I like to read RC trivia.)
I don’t think a parent can ask for an opt-out because they don’t like the general morality of what the duly elected school board has approved, they need to either run for the school board or elect better representatives.
The religious exception is something they can legally ask for. I imagine plenty of secular parents aren’t too happy about this either. Once the opt-out is allowed I suppose anybody can do it.
However raising a gigantic stink about it is also usually enough. Who wants that headache for trans story time? Montgomery county defending this all the way to the SC wasn’t too wise IMO. I can see some board members facing some tough reelection races.
“gave rise to three related concerns: high student absenteeism”
This ended up being a red herring. Somebody actually looked into this claim and high absenteeism was due to the usual stuff and had nothing to do with this issue. They county immediately folded when challenged by Kavanaugh or Alito on this.
CNN: “Some US allies are highly alarmed by the president’s plan to let Russia keep most of the land it has seized from Ukraine”
OK. What’s their plan? I also wish that wouldn’t happen but a wish is not an army that will push Russia out of Ukraine.
Tom Scharf wrote: “I don’t think a parent can ask for an opt-out because they don’t like the general morality of what the duly elected school board has approved, they need to either run for the school board or elect better representatives.”
That sounds like the solution is to win a culture war. Or maybe a civil war.
Kenneth has a MUCH better solution: Allow parents to choose where their kids go to school.
Mike M,
Or move somewhere else, where crazy lefties don’t sit on the local school board.
I suspect it is inevitable that school boards (and all local elected positions) are more likely to be occupied by people who to want to impose a certain value system on public policies. Some places those values don’t generate much pushback because they are reasonably inoffensive and reasonably evenhanded. This is a case where the board is not being at all evenhanded and imposing values quite offensive to many people. The SC will smack down the school board. That won’t end the conflict, any more than the SC can stop Harvard from discriminating based on race.
On a different subject: The fellow who runs my wife’s non-profit sewing school in Haiti contacted my wife today by email and said criminal gangs now control 3/4 of the capitol of Port au Prince. and people are fleeing the gang controlled areas to the remaining non-gang area….. which is shrinking daily. Shipping goods/materials to the school is currently just about impossible.
It sounds like total social collapse in Haiti may not be far away.
Tom Scharf,
I think once opt out is allowed for religious reasons, pretty much anyone will have access to it. Technically it might not be required, but otherwise the school personnel are going to have to say the parent’s claim about their religious belief is not in good faith. How are they going to go about figuring out which parents are making good faith assertions about their religious beliefs? That really would be unworkable. “You don’t even go to church!” isn’t considered much in the way of evidence.
Also, it’s going to be impossible for the school to achieve their goal of increasing “acceptance” of trans kids if numerous students are stepping out of the class. If 1/4 of the kids in class are opting out, the other kids are going to ask why. It becomes difficult for the teacher to not talk about the fact that many people disagree with some of the ideas in the book. After all, that’s why the other kids aren’t in the class!!!
(BTW: This a link to tons of amicus briefs, briefs and so on.
https://www.scotusblog.com/cases/case-files/mahmoud-v-taylor/ )
Lucia’s post:
“Allowing their kids to be exposed to certain believes would be an affirmative act that violates RC religious beliefs. That would mean parents who do this are affirmatively acting in violation of those RC believes. “
In my entire twelve years of Roman Catholic education I managed to not learn that rule.
Then I put two sons through eight years of Catholic education and four of public schools and never once checked their math books for blasphemy.
I’ll be goin’ straight to hell.
The judge who issued the protection order for the “Maryland Bro” did not make an error by not referring to El Salvador for protection in the protective order. When he referred to Guatemala, he ment Guatemala.
On rereading the order, I found :
Family moved from El Salvador to Guatemala
Family received death threats in Guatemala
No changed circumstances in Guatemala
Order bars subject from being deported to Guatemala
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mdd.578815/gov.uscourts.mdd.578815.1.1_2.pdf
Russell
And yet it is one. Teachers do not introduce young children to heresies. You wait to discuss heresies until they are older and even then, generally only those delving deeply bother to do it.
Few learn it’s actually a rule to not introduce and discuss heretical idea as a method of better understanding the non-heretical ones. But it is.
Can I find this rule now? Nope. But it is one.
I mean seriously: did you have any classes on “The history of heresies” in Catholic grade school? Arian through Zorastrian? I bet not. Those heresies are very interesting and clarify what the heck the Apostle’s creed even means. But no one has that class until possibly college level.
The teachers didn’t announce and explain why you don’t have classes about the heresies in k-12. But they don’t have them.
Lucia, Your post:
“I mean seriously: did you have any classes on “The history of heresies” in Catholic grade school? “
No, not in Catholic grade school. But I attend a special college preparatory Catholic High school, taught by the Christian Brothers of St. John Baptist de La Salle:
Pittsburgh Central Catholic:
“To inspire boys to become Men of Faith, Men of Scholarship, Men of Service.”
https://www.centralcatholichs.com/pages/mission-history
Religion was a core class required all four years [as was two years of Latin!].
We studied many religions and heresies. Once I did a term paper on Judaism that required research in a Jewish library. [The Rabbis were delighted to help!]
The Catholic Church has been writing laws for 2,000 years, most of which have been lost in time.
I had a 5th grade teacher who read books to the class, all focused on the horrors and evil nature of slavery and racism. In no way was this part of any formal curriculum…. he was trying to convince the students of a specific moral point of view, no matter what they heard at home; in the early 60’s racism wasn’t that uncommon. The book reading never took place when an administrator sat in to evaluate the teacher.
Lucia’s post talking about Catholic education into the heresies reminded me of our studies of the Protestant Reformation.
There is a great parallel to today.
One reason the two great heresies of the Reformation spread so quickly was the invention of the printing press:
https://credomag.com/2020/11/how-the-invention-of-the-printing-press-helped-advance-the-reformation/
It is similar to how today’s revolution in social media changed political campaigns in the US.
Russell,
Judaism is not a heresy.
Latin is also not heresy.
Also not a heresy.
Did you write any papers on Zorastrian Heresy? Or the Nestorian Heresy? Or the beliefs of the Abigensians (i.e. Cathars?)
The public viewing of Pope Francis is taking place at St. Peter’s Basilica in Vatican City. It is being broadcast live on:
Vatican Media Live
https://www.youtube.com/live/J6MqpK91bEA?si=K6SXgZgc8CNzHCFF
Some of the Gregorian Chants [Catholic Latin Hymns] are beautiful.
Funeral services will be broadcast livestarting at 10 AM [Rome Time] tomorrow.
Lucia;
“Did you write any papers on Zorastrian Heresy? Or the Nestorian Heresy? Or the beliefs of the Abigensians (i.e. Cathars?)”
No, and I don’t recall those but it was 50 years ago.
I do recall quite a lot [probably a semester] on the heresies of the Protestant Reformation. There was no hesitancy on the part of the Brothers to discuss this and delve into current Protestant religions.
Your basis:
“Few learn it’s actually a rule to not introduce and discuss heretical idea as a method of better understanding the non-heretical ones. But it is.”
is pure bunk.
Russell,
But you recall writing one about Judaism.
The protestant reformation can’t be dealt with by ignoring. All the changes in government and the killings during fairly modern history can’t be ignored, so the fact that it had to do with religious beliefs can’t be ignored. So by high school addressing discussing the reformation is “necessary”.
Avoiding unnecessary discussions of things that violate the religion when students are too young is “the rule”. It’s not unlike the general rule of “age appropriate” in secular schools– it’s just that it applies to things that are specifically religious in nature.
Nope. You did not study the Albigensian heresy. Nor the Zoroastrian heresy. You are simply unaware that it’s “not done”.
Lucia,
I can find no Canon Law against the study of Heresy as a way of understanding. Show me the text if you have it.
So, I ask Grok.
Grok on Canon Law and Studying Heresy
“ The Church encourages scholarly study of heresy to understand historical, theological, and pastoral implications. This is evident in the works of theologians like St. Augustine or St. Thomas Aquinas, who analyzed heresies (e.g., Arianism, Gnosticism) to defend orthodox doctrine.”
“Cautions: Engaging with heretical texts directly (e.g., Gnostic gospels) requires discernment to avoid undermining faith. Canon Law indirectly supports this through canons on censorship of books (Canons 822–832), which urge caution with materials that could harm faith or morals.”
Full Canon Law analysis:
https://grok.com/share/bGVnYWN5_9afb1a72-a48d-47e5-8119-e83b3594baa5
Russell,
I wrote this is only when you are older.
Note what I actually wrote
Also
Kids in k-5th grade are not doing “scholarly study”.
Also, when you do introduce heresies, you must teach that the are wrong ideas.
https://www.ncregister.com/blog/have-faith-the-catholic-church-can-never-teach-heresy#:~:text=Have%20Faith!%20The%20Catholic%20Church%20Can%20Never%20Teach%20Heresy%7C%20National%20Catholic%20Register.
“Have Faith! The Catholic Church Can Never Teach Heresy”
This is google AI
AI Overview
Learn more
In Roman Catholic theology, teaching children about heresies, or beliefs that contradict established doctrine, can be a valid part of religious education. This approach allows students to critically examine their faith, understand the history of the Church, and strengthen their own understanding of the Catholic faith by seeing how heresies have been refuted. However, it’s crucial to present heresies in a way that emphasizes their refutation by the Church’s teachings and avoids causing confusion or undermining the student’s faith.
Why Teach Heresies?
Critical Thinking:
Examining heresies encourages critical thinking about faith and helps students understand how the Church’s teachings are defended against alternative interpretations.
Understanding Church History:
Studying heresies provides insights into the historical development of Catholic doctrine and how the Church has responded to challenges.
Strengthening Faith:
By understanding how heresies are refuted, students can strengthen their own faith and commitment to the Church’s teachings.
Discernment:
Learning about heresies helps students develop the ability to discern true teachings from false ones, a skill essential for navigating the world.
How to Teach Heresies Effectively:
Emphasize Refutation:
Always present heresies in the context of their refutation by the Church’s official teachings.
Provide Context:
Explain the historical context in which the heresy arose and the reasons why the Church condemned it.
Focus on Truth:
Clearly and repeatedly emphasize the truth of the Catholic faith and the reasons why it is the true and enduring teaching.
Use Critical Thinking Tools:
Encourage students to ask questions, analyze arguments, and engage in thoughtful discussion about the different perspectives.
Note: Students are absolutely not to get the “wrong answer”.
Russell
You know who doesn’t have “discernment”? Kindergardeners.
From yur cannons
Lucia,
I don’t have time to study that now. I’ll look at it later. Do you have any references to Canon Law that I didn’t find?
Ed Forbes,
The judge granted Garcia’s motion for withholding of removal. Do you know if that motion specified El Salvador or Guatemala?
If the latter, then the administration could make the whole thing disappear with a wave of a motion. They have not. Of course, it could be that Trump is following Napoleon’s advice to never interrupt the enemy when he is making a mistake.
Russell,
I showed you that the references you found tell the faithful that their children’s education should not include texts whose moral teachings are not approved by eclesiastical authorities.
The books in question include teachings that would fall in the category of “moral”. Not only are these books not approved by any ecclesiastical authority, they clearly contain “moral” teaching that are repugnant to Catholics and easily recognized by parents as such.
I don’t know what more you want from Cannon law. It seems to be the ones you found show precisely what I claimed.
Russell,
I guess if the parents wanted more fire power they could follow the dictates of §3 and submit the books and the guidelines to teachers to their “local ordinary” and see what they have to say. I’m pretty sure we know what the “local ordinary” would say.
When I called them “your cannons” they were the numbers mentioned in your Grok link==822-833
The quotes were from 827.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/cod-iuris-canonici/eng/documents/cic_lib3-cann822-833_en.html
You can find them all here:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/cod-iuris-canonici/cic_index_en.html
Here are other duities for lay people
https://www.vatican.va/archive/cod-iuris-canonici/eng/documents/cic_lib2-cann208-329_en.html#PUBLIC_ASSOCIATIONS_OF_THE_CHRISTIAN_FAITHFUL
You will also find a special requirement that parents attend to the christian education of their children
Parents don’t get a pass on letting the kids be led into immoral teachings just because the public school thinks something is right.
Christians must announce and defend their doctrine
To the extent that teaching that believing you were born in the “wrong body” or “wrong sex” violates Catholic teachings, based on the above, parents are obligated to prevent their children from being taught the opposite.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/cod-iuris-canonici/eng/documents/cic_lib3-cann793-821_en.html
To the extent that teaching its moral to believe God gave you the wrong body violates Catholic teaching, permitting your kids to be taught that when they are too young is not “nurtur[ing] in such a way that they are able to develop their physical, moral, and intellectual talents harmoniously, …”
Can. 796
Parents can’t just let the teachers do… whatever…
If the school is providing teachings contrary to a Catholic education, the parents must spend time telling the kids the school is wrong.
The parents kinda sort of have to object to immoral teachings, and perhaps sue the school board. . .
All in all: parents can’t just passively allow schools to subject their kids to immoral teachings. Although if they have no other choice, they can tell their kids the teachers are wrong (and must do so), they are required to strive to engage with the teachers or school and get things changed.
Bingo.
There were thoughts early in our nations history when serving in elected government positions was consider more of a duty/burden than a privilege. It was get my duty over so I can get back to my business, trade or profession.
As for local elections for school boards, my experiences are in line with Tom’s comment. I would add that those voting regularly in those elections tend to have political agendas.
I listened to comments from those running for school board positions in a forum sponsored by the League of Woman Voters. The incumbents had bs comments in efforts to hide their agendas. The two young ladies for whom I voted were not incumbents and commented about problems that the other candidates ignored. Unfortunately incumbents win most elections in my locale simply by being incumbents.
William F. Buckley: “I should sooner live in a society governed by the first two thousand names in the Boston telephone directory than in a society governed by the two thousand faculty members of Harvard University.”
Kenneth Fritsch wrote: “those voting regularly in those elections tend to have political agendas … incumbents had bs comments in efforts to hide their agendas … incumbents win most elections in my locale simply by being incumbents”.
I suspect that most incumbents win by serving the agendas of the activists who often exert so much influence in local elections. Incumbent hide their agendas because revealing them would motivate people to vote and drown out the activists.
Lucia, I appreciate your dive into Canon Law and Russell as adversario.
I wonder how many parents today have the interest in their children’s education as Canon Law prescibes – and even good Catholics. They might think they have little control and thus send their kids to school and hope for the best. They would or should have at least retained influence over what their children see and hear about morals and principles of a good life and put them in a position to be able to chose what ideas from school to accept or deny.
Kenneth,
I first became interested in this issue of teachers teaching things when I took “20th century problems” as a religion class in high school. This was last semester senior year. The nun has “plans”, which were not working out because largely owing to me, two of the other students were not making the “right conclusions”.
Mid-semester, she dropped the topics she planned and we just switched to rote doctrine stuff. Literally memorizing the holy days of obligation. She told us she couldn’t continue to class if we…. uhmm…. well basically came to the wrong conclusions. ( I had, fwiw, pretty much suggested she was trying to insist on pre-ordained conclusions. She eventually admitted it when she decreed she couldn’t stick to the plan of these topics any more.)
I know one of the things was whether we could know there was objective right and wrong and how. (It’s ‘supposed’ to come from God. Cultural norms is the wrong answer. I didn’t think that was the answer either. But from god? No. I didn’t think that.)
Mike M.
I cannot find the reference but shortly after Buckley made the comment about the first 2,000 names in the Boston Phone Book, someone analyzed the list and found (IIRC and may not) that the first 2’000 names were largely Irish Catholic. I doubt that the Harvard faculty has ever been largely Irish Catholic.
https://grok.com/chat/b897943d-b65b-4e54-b356-f6b1de053213
Roman Catholic view on children Studying Heresy
[…]
I’ll skip older children because Mahmoud is about younger children. (K-5th grade) Russell objected to my discussion which was about younger children, not adults or even teens.
Even if many Roman Catholics are not aware of it (and some– possibly especially those who went to Roman Catholic schools k-12), the RC church discourages even exposing children to heretical ideas when they are too young. The reason those who went to Catholic school are less likely to be aware of this is that the school simply does not bring up heresies in elementary school. So there are no “controversies” about what teachers are teaching when the kids get home from schools. Those who went to RC schools and did not develop any particular interest in any heresy– did not fall away blah, blah blah are often pretty unaware of the position on teaching this stuff because it was a non-issue to their life.
But it is, in fact, the case that if a RC parent has a young kid in public school and the school starts advocating or teaching heresies, the RC parent has a big problem and the parent is supposed to take action.
Roman Catholic parents letting their young kid sit in class and intentionally taught or exposed to heresies technically does violate cannon law. So saying this would violate their faith isn’t attributing to them some sort of odd controversial views.
I would guess that even if many Catholics are blithely unaware of this Roberts, Coney-Barret, Alito and Thomas are very aware of it. Sotomoyor should be. Gorsuch is protestant but was sent to Catholic schools. He may also know this.
I suspect we’ll read a lot of language on what “expose” means. It’s probably not going to be just having a book on the shelf, nor someone blurting something unplanned out. But structured lessons using books that take points of view that violate someone’s religion is different from some passing statement.
And there is nothing to balance– the teacher or school district don’t have some “right” to teach others that gender is not binary!
I’m looking at cited cases and examining similarities and differences with the parents complaintg in Mahmoud. I’ll put in comments as I read them.
Mozert, found here.
https://jackbalkin.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/mozert1.pdf
and here
https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/647/1194/2359788/
Parents did not want their kids to read stories about mental telepathy or magic because that violated their religion.
Similar: to Mahmoud. Kids just read.
Difference to Mahmoud: Teachers almost certainly were not claiming mental telepathy was real. No one claims they were encouraging students to believe in ESP. The purpose in introducing the books is not specifically to broaden the children’s minds to the idea that ESP is a real thing. There is/was no significant political movement advocating that ESP or magic is real. It is almost certainly the case that all the teachers consider the idea that characters have psychic powers is fiction.
In contrast, in Mahmoud, the school board does want to expose the students to the idea that being transgender, gay or lesbian is ok. They are not introducing this value as mere “fiction”. The books are describing a position that at least some people are advocating is correct. The teacher training materials include tips on how to push back on people who express values that are disageeable to the idea that gender is binary. “The School Board’s policy of forced participation
in the Pride Storybooks is not neutral toward religious
exercise and expressly encourages teachers to tell
students that their religious and scientific
perspectives are “hurtful.””
Possible difference. There are 14 kids in Mozert; I can only find the age range of one. That was a 6th grader. The kids in Mahmoud include kindergarteners. As kids age, they develop the ability to express disagreements.
United States District Court, E.D. Tennessee, Northeastern Division. ruling: the kids got to opt out of the reading program.
Sixth circuit: They don’t get to opt out of reading. The case didn’t go any further.
Wikipedia:
In Mahmoud, the parents highlight teacher prep material that trains teachers to push back on the idea that being gay, or transgender is, in some way, wrong.
____
If (likely when) SCOTUS rules against the school board in Mahmoud, and don’t think they will have any trouble pointing out the differences in the level of “compulsion”. The school board in Mahmoud almost certainly is trying to instill values with respect to the particular religious views under discussion. The one in Mozert…. no.
The appendix to Mahmoud is interesting btw
http://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/24/24-297/325842/20240912175623063_Mahmoud Cert Appendix FINAL.pdf
Got up at 3:30 AM to watch the Pope’s funeral. One moving part was the ‘Our Father’ prayer that was sung in Latin. That look me a long way back.
Video: https://youtube.com/shorts/9E_vPuGnIl0?si=Hz7dWL5e-3Y-3Tcv
Finishing my morning reading my news feed and listening to the Gregorian Chant play list on Apple Music.
Link: https://music.apple.com/us/album/gregorian-chant/1061635380
Something that has puzzled me in debates about tariffs is the dogmatism of the free traders. Here is an informative discussion of the sources of that dogmatism:
https://commonplace.org/2025/04/24/why-are-free-traders-so-emotional-about-trade/
But first, he briefly points out how unreasonable that dogmatism is:
Economic pacifism.
Photo of the day, Trump and Zelenskyy having a private chat at Saint Peter’s.
https://x.com/rklier21/status/1916366047684214998?s=61&t=7w4bCW3a8ve2DqoeniQatQ
Mark,
This may be of interest (it’s little dated…. February)
New Pentagon Report: F-35 Test Progress Slow, Readiness Below Par
https://www.airandspaceforces.com/new-pentagon-report-f-35-test-progress-readiness/
The most striking moment at the funeral for me was the Byzantine Archbishops chanting the ‘Christos anesti’ in Greek while their Patriarch swings incense around the Pope’s casket.
Video: https://x.com/jkenney/status/1916325366697730093?s=61&t=7w4bCW3a8ve2DqoeniQatQ
Notice the elaborate bejeweled headgear on some of them. They are often referred to as Greek Catholics. They are in full communion with the Roman Catholics. Their priests can marry.
Once each year, my entire high school would attend mass at The Greek Catholic cathedral In Pittsburgh.
Wait, I said that wrong; married men can be ordained as Greek Catholic priests, though priests cannot marry after ordination.
Russel,
Incense waving is cool.
Lucia,
Almost makes up for all the BS
Can’t access the site from my mobile. Complains about an invalid SSL certificate, error 526. Tried multiple browsers. Tried just http, but even with secure connections turned off, it switches to https.
Lucia’s incense post reminded me of a joke from my alter boy days….
The priest instructs the alter boy;
When I sing during the service ‘and the angels lit the candles’ you come out and light the candles.
So, during the service, the priest sings:
“And the angels lit the candles”
And nothing happened, so the priest again sings:
“ And the angels lit the candles”
And after a few moments, the altar boy from back in the sacristy sings:
“And the cat pissed on the matches”
Another moving moment at the funeral was the beautiful incantation of The Litany of the Saints:
Video: https://x.com/catholicsat/status/1916069202475069696?s=61&t=7w4bCW3a8ve2DqoeniQatQ
DaveJR
I’m trying to get something sorted out with the SSL certificate. It’s been an issue, and things are touchy since I requested one at Dreamhost. There seems to be a Dreamhost/Cloudflare issue.
I have a ticket in. Dreamhost replied. We’ll be trying to get this sorted out.
Lucia, a few days I had the exact same error message on my windows desktop. I just cut and paste the URL from my iPad and I haven’t had any trouble since.
Huzzah! Thanks for sorting this out Lucia.
That certification error message kept me out of this site on my comnputer, my table and phone and just this PM am I getting back in.
It seems my phone didn’t have the certificate problem but my computers did. odd. I use Chrome, but also tried Firefox and both hung on the certificate.
“Tariffs are merely instruments of economic statecraft, like taxes of other kinds, tax deductions and exemptions, direct grants, regulations, price controls, capital controls, financial sanctions, public ownership, and other tools of government, all of which are appropriate in some cases and not in others. The only rational answer to the question of whether free trade or protection is the best policy is: it depends.”
Today I’ll be a socialist and tomorrow a capitalist and maybe next week a fascist: it depends. Situational dogmatism.
My daughter-in-law’s mother married a former Catholic priest who wrote a book that ended with the reuniting of the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches. Reading it I learned a few things I did not know just as was the case with the Canon Law discussion here.
I haven’t seen the site in about 2 days due to the SSL error. I think I only tried on my PC, not on the phone.
I too was frozen out for lack of a ‘valid certificate’. Both phone and desktop.
Interesting observation: one adamant non-believer on this thread appears to know 10x more about Catholicism than most practicing Catholics. Seems ironic, and a little funny.
Hamas is now offering to release all prisoners in exchange for 5 years of cease-fire, AKA liberty to re-arm, dig tunnels and plan more attacks on Israel. Oddly enough, Israel shows no interest. They will not stop until Hamas is gone. Another year? Hard to say.
I Ukraine, there seems little prospect for a cease-fire in the near term, and even less prospect for anything except a cease-fire combined with a ‘frozen conflict’ long term. Unfortunately, the killing will continue for a while.
I did manage to write more code in the last couple of days that I otherwise would have. 😉
I was out for a few days due to a SSL error.
Thanks for supporting the site Lucia.
My Dad finally moved to Florida so I have been to church a couple times lately. It’s about the same as I remember. The priest was pretty good down here, makes a big difference.
Elite Universities Form Private Collective to Resist Trump Administration
https://www.wsj.com/us-news/education/elite-universities-form-private-collective-to-resist-trump-administration-95a14ff3?st=B7fMFY&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
They need to be very careful here, if it comes off as elite universities resisting the will of the public (funding) then it may further erode support for higher education. I think they live in a bubble and are bound to screw this up big time.
The certificate problem was on and off. It may or may not be fully vanquished. If it recurrs, it’s not you. It should be fixed soon though.
Au contrair SteveF.
Some sort of Ukraine truce in next 2 weeks.
Hamas ? No idea.
Big issue is Iran and if a strike will occur when Ukraine out of the way.
Only guessing