Data Comparisons

More on the cyclonebusting notion.

182 Comments

In the continuing saga of explaining issues that may prevent Patrick Cyclonebuster’s system from both preventing hurricanes and generating energy in one fell swoop, in this post I will:

  1. Demonstrate a simple concept in hydrostatics.
  2. Explain why this simple hydrostatic principle may make Patrick’s system unworkable as proposed even if frictional effects are zero.

(For those interested in Patrick’s basic idea, visit . For those interested in the experiment to figure out if the system would even work if there were no gravitational effects, visit the discussion of an experiment. This post only discusses the gravitational effects.)

Simple hydrostatic experiment

Figure 1: Density difference causes liquid in height to be lower than free surface.
Figure 1: Density difference causes liquid in height to be lower than free surface.
During the “Cyclonebusting” phase of Patrick system, the basic idea idea is to submerge an inclined pipe into the gulf stream, with an inlet at the lower portion oriented to the oncoming stream such that cold sea water flowing at roughly V=6 mph (or roughly 2.7 m/s) will enter the inlet, flow up the pipe and, pass through a turbine, generate energy and then flow out the exit. After that, the water will mix with warm water at the surface, thereby cooling it. This will then reduce the intensity of the hurricane.

In comments, a number of people have told Patrick that one difficulty is that he will need to over come the weight of the water. Patrick thinks this is not a problem and one of the reasons is that if you place a straw in water, the fluid level in the straw will be level with the free surface of the water outside the straw. So, even the tiniest small additional pressure at the bottom of the pipe is required to induce flow in a totally submerged staw. This additional pressure would be provided by the dynamic pressure of the flowing water, which happens to be equal to 1/2 ρ V2, where ρ is the density of the water flowing into the pipe and V its velocity far upstream of the inlet. (So, in Patrick’s case, V is approximately 6 mph.)

Now for the hydrostatic problem. It is true that if water has a constant density from the top to the bottom of a container, and you stick in a straw a straw into the water, leaving the top of the straw open to the atmosphere, the level of water in the straw will be even with the surface. It is true that if you apply a tiny additional pressure at the base of the straw, and keep the top of the straw level with the surface, water will flow up the tube. So, it is true that if we bend the bottom of this straw and face it into the flow and leave the top of the straw level with the surface, the at least some water will flow into the pipe. How much depends on frictional effects inside the straw which are strongly geometry dependent. But, it’s true that some water will flow up the straw.

But that doesn’t mean that water will flow through Patrick’s cyclone busting rig when submerged in the gulfstream

Why not? Patrick is trying to get cooler, denser water water to flow up to a region where water is warmer and less dense.

So, lets now look at this piece of the argument Patrick is advancing: if you place a straw in water, the fluid level in the straw will be level with the free surface of the water outside the straw.

Figure 1: Density difference causes liquid in height to be lower than free surface.
Figure 1: Density difference causes liquid in height to be lower than free surface.
Does it always apply? No. It does not.

To the right I show an elegant flower vase filled with with oil and sugar water. (The red color comes from Betty Crocker food coloring.) I scavenged a clear pipette inside a bottle of Sparkle window cleaner held my finger over the top and inserted. When the bottom of the pipe reached the bottom of the vase, I lifted my finger; sugar water flowed into the straw. Notice the to surface of the denser (i.e. heavier) red sugar water in the straw is lower than the surface of the oil.

According to the hydrostatic equation, the height difference, h, the elevation distance between the free surface of the oil and the free surface of the sugar water inside the straw, (shown to the right) is related to the density of the water and oil as:

h = (1 – ρoil/ρw) hoil

So, in this case, if I cut off the top of the pipette just below the level of the oil, oil would flow into the pipette. The system would eventually oil in the top of the pipette and sugar water in the bottom with the interface at the same level as outside the straw.

What does this have to do with Patrick’s theory?

In Patricks cyclonebusting device, he is inserting a slanted pipe into cooler, denser water and hopes it will flow up. His notion is the dynamic pressure associated with the 6mph flow in the gulfstream will lift fluid up to the surface. To cool surface water, the system is, presumably, designed to minimize heat transfer to the flowing fluid as it rises through the tunnel.

However, if you view the image to the right, you will realize that upward flow of sugar water can only occur if the dynamic pressure acting on the base of the inclined straw is sufficient to raise the sugar water to the level even with the surface of the oil,

It is possible to show that the minimum upstream velocity to permit any upward flow in a submerged piping system is:
V∞2 = (1-ρave/ρentrance) { 2 g H }

where H is the height Patrick wants to lift the water, ρave is the density of water outside the pipe averaged over the height H, ρ is the density of the cooler water he is lifting, and g is accelaration due to gravity.

I don’t know the precise dimension of everything Patrick wants to do, but suppose he wants to lift water 400 meters, and outside the pipe, the water at average density of water integrated over height outside the pipe is 0.05% less than that of cool sea water at the bottom. Then, we determine

V∞2 = (0.0005) * { 2 * 9.8 m/s2 500 m} = 5 (m/s)2

So, the minimum velocity he needs just to hold raise water in to the top of his device is about 2.23 m/s. This is close to 6 mph (2.7 m/s).

This seems grim, but things aren’t quite as bad as they might appear. If we neglect frictional effects due to viscosity and consider the flow velocity of 6 mph in the gulfstream, we can estimate the maximum possible velocity in a piping system between two elevations. This will be:

V2 = V∞2– (1-ρave/ρentrance){ 2 g H }

Assuming the dimensions I used before, the maximum possible velocity roughly 1.5 m/s or about 3.4 mph, which is a little more than 50% the 6mph of the free stream.

This means quite a bit less water to achieve the “cyclone busting effect” but it’s not zero.

So, is Patrick’s system impossible?

I don’t know if Patrick’s system is impossible.

Anyone reading above will recognize that I am doing a back of the envelope calculation. I don’t know the average density of water as a function of height in the gulf stream, so I picked values that make sense for a 20C change in temperature neglecting any changes in salinity. If, for some reason, the average density of water between the elevations of the inlet and exit is higher than I estimated, this gravitational effect will be smaller and Patrick’s system becomes more promising. I don’t know the elevation change of Patrick’s system; if the elevation change is much less than 500 m, the effect of density will also be smaller.

I also don’t know if Patrick is being optimistic when he assumes a flow velocity of 6mph. Note that with the dimensions I assumed 4 mph is insufficient to induces any flow at all.

So, now I’m counting on Patrick to give a succinct description of all dimensions. Then (if there are no typos in my equations) anyone can figure out if the density difference matters very much.

Meanwhile, Patrick is doing the experiment to permit us to estimate the frictional effects. Once we have both, I can add those to the equation for flow through the piping network and we can do a first cut estimate of flow through the system.

182 thoughts on “More on the cyclonebusting notion.”

  1. “If we neglect and consider the flow velocity “

    Neglect and consider it? is “friction” or “turbine backpressure” missing someplace?

  2. A seamount, rising up out of the sea floor, has strong currents that frequently run over it, providing the animals living along its flanks with a constant supply of planktonic food.

    Even small rocks become a haven for animal life. (Image courtesy MBARI) Click image for larger view.

    ——————————————————————————–
    These same currents also produce localized upwelling of water around the seamount. Nutrients like nitrates and phosphates, which are critical to the growth of phytoplankton, are lifted from the deep to the sunlit surface waters. These nutrients fuel an explosion of planktonic plant and animal growth, and attract larger animals such as whales, sharks, tunas, and seabirds to a veritable feast.

    http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/02davidson/background/diversity/diversity.html

  3. Lucia,
    Great example of What I am trying to show for the inlet side of the tunnel.However, I am sure the density difference in your example is far greater than what the sea water actually is! What about the lower pressure exerted at the back side? This should tend to help lift it further or create more differential pressure across the whole submerged structure. Also, we may only have to tap into 60 degree water to mix at the surfce at 90 degrees to get a net ~temperature of 75 degree water once it mixes downstream. Hurricanes weaken over 75 degree water. 60 degree water is not as deep as 50 degree water.This would allow for more flow because it is less dense? Correct?

  4. The elevation difference is about 1000 feet to get to the 50 degree water. 60 degree water would be much less than a 1000 feet.

  6. lucia (Comment#14930)
    June 20th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    David-
    The salt fountain issue is cool! However, Patrick’s system can’t use that method of inducing flow because the salt fountain requires heat transfer across the pipewalls! In the salt fountain they are specifically drawing up less salty water. It because less heavy as it travels up and warms.

    But even if the water at the entrance of Patrick’s cyclone buster has less salt than the surface, Patrick’s cyclonebuster can’t permit heat transfer across the walls of the pipe. If that heat transfer occurs, he can’t cool the upper surface much. The water coming out at the top of the pipe would already be warm!

    I’ve been assuming zero heat transfer across the pipewalls when trying to figure out if this thing can work.

    This is what we want to transfer the heat to the surface.The amount of heat transferred at the wall is small compared to the transfer of heat once the water comes out the top.

  10. This would also end!

    1.02 Billion People Hungry: One Sixth Of Humanity Undernourished, More Than Ever Before
    ScienceDaily (June 20, 2009) — World hunger is projected to reach a historic high in 2009 with 1,020 million people going hungry every day, according to new estimates published by United Nation’s Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO).

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090619121443.htm

  11. The benifits of the tunnels are numerous.We can get into that later!

  13. Patrick– After we figure out whether your tunnels can simultaneously lift water, generate poewr and cool the surface we can start to consider whether they will save starving people or coral reefs.

    Have you been able to design the stagnation tap? Or figure out how to inject the ink? Or safely suspend your rig on the side of your boat?

    We need that information, as well as your design depths and dimensions to figure out if this works at all. Also, it would be helpful if you looked up the density variation of sea water instead of just expressing your belief that the density variation is much smaller than one would expect based on published values for the change in density for a 20F change in temperature of water. It’s find to be optimistic. But if you are going to be the promoter of this system, you have to do the work to show it could work. Those who think it’s pie in the sky are not going to spend their time doing your work for you.

  14. lucia,
    What a totally cool pitcher. We could have sued that for Sangria, this afternoon in the Alamo City.

    Patrick C,
    Show us where can flow uphill without being pumped up, and have enough energy to do useful work. Heck, show us where water flows uphill anywhere at all.
    And do please show us anywhere at all, and anyhow at all, why your system, if it could pump massive amounts of water uphill without a pump, do anything to help coral reefs. In fact, if I recall coral reef health issues, cool water is considered a way to make sure coral is unhealthy.
    Cheers,

  15. lucia,
    I promise we were not considering whther or not we should have *sued* you if we could not have *used* your beautiful pitcher. Or was it a vase?

  16. “In fact, if I recall coral reef health issues, cool water is considered a way to make sure coral is unhealthy.”

    That depends on how cool you keep them. Right now coral bleaching is killing them.

  17. In you water glass example which I have performed once before, notice how the atmosphere pushes down on the water thus forcing the more heavy water up the tube, no need to pump it because Earths atmospheric pressure is the pump. All we have to do is place the top of the tunnel outlet just below the level of the red colored water. The red colored water wants to seek that level anyways. This will mean the Ke force at the bottom inlet will cause flow to occur.

  18. Hunter–
    Officially, that’s a vase. It probably works as a pitcher, but there is no lip to simplify pouring.

    Patrick–
    Cutting the straw won’t work. The red colored water is only raised in the straw because there is air at atmospheric pressure in the top part of the straw. If you replace it with oil, that changes the hydrostatic problem.

    If you cut the straw, the red colored water will be level with the surface. I didn’t cut the straw, I can show you.

  19. Patrick C,
    What are the limitations of Earth’s atmosphere to act as a pump?
    By the way, if AGW was behind coral bleaching we would see new coral reefs starting up in more northerly locales, and coral specie combinations changing. The coral bleaching issue is probably another example of the true cost of AGW: if AGW is the answer, why bother to ask the question?
    lucia,
    Nice vase.

  21. Please go ahead and edit the blog to show another picture, this time with the straw cut below the air/oil surface.

  22. I cananbalized the tube from window cleaner. I put it back in the bottle. If I cut it, it will be too short to use for window cleaner! (I’ll look for clear straws at the store tomorrow.)

  23. Remember this all changes when the forces of the gulstream act upon the entrance and exit.

  25. How you all doing tonight? I think I will post a video on youtube when I finish the experiment this week. Anyways, who wants to talk more tunnels?

  29. Any Oceanographers here that can tell us density differences in the Gulfstream by elevation?

  30. So does that make the average density difference between the inlet and outlet .0075???? Come on where are the brainiacs?

  31. Connie (Comment#14958)
    June 21st, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    Patrick, you should Youtube any experiment you do.

    I will.

  32. Patrick,
    If you want to get a precise reading off the graph, download the image, blow it up and trace graph paper over it.

  36. In Lucias water glass example which I have performed once before, notice how the atmosphere pushes down on the water thus forcing the more heavy water up the tube, no need to pump it because Earths atmospheric pressure is the pump. All we have to do is place the top of the tunnel outlet just below the level of the red colored water in the straw. The red colored water wants to seek that level anyways. This will mean the Ke at the bottom inlet will cause flow to occur. So in all with the gulfstream flowing you actually have five forces acting on the water to make it rise up the tube.
    1.) Atmospheric pressure pushing down on the ocean surface causing the more dense water to rise up the tube as in Lucias example.
    2.) Ke at the tunnel inlet.
    3.) Pascals theory of hydraulics at tunnel inlet.
    4.) Bernoulli working at the exit creating a lower pressure which adds to the pressure differential across the whole submerged tunnel.
    5.) Conservation of energy in the pipe.

  37. funny, one of my PhD qualifying questions was how come water would not form a perpetual motion machine if you sink the bottom end of a tiny capillary tube into a glass (recall, of course, water will rise in the tube above the zero pressure line…having what we call “suction” (or sometimes referred to as a negative pressure, which of course isn’t true in the actual sense of pressure).

    Hunter – water flows uphill all the time in nature (think geysers!)…its all about the P+v2/2g + elev. potential…with a geyser, of course,. the P and V are converted to positive elevation potential.

    Patrick – your 6 mph is good for a whopping 1.2 feet of elevation potential…gonna be hard to get much out of that.

    Fun stuff Lucia….your immiscible fluids analogy is very similar (but simpler) than the common occurence of *trying* to measure the thickness of an oil layer in a monitoring well….much more complicated by the porous medium, hysteresis of the pressure/saturation curves, etc. Thanks.

  38. “I don’t know the precise dimension of everything Patrick wants to do, but suppose he wants to lift water 400 meters, and outside the pipe, the water at average density of water integrated over height outside the pipe is 0.05% less than that of cool sea water at the bottom.”

    According to the density graph at 500 meters we get an average density of .002 difference and a temperature of 13C or 55.4 degrees.
    With density being less than I thought then we can go to 600 meters to 10 C water or 50 degrees with the average density at .0025 . 50 degree water would suit the tunnels well at the inlet.

  39. Patrick Cyclonebuster (Comment#14968) June 21st, 2009 at 8:13 pm
    “Any Oceanographers here that can tell us density differences in the Gulfstream by elevation?”

    The density profile in the vicinity of the Gulf Stream is much different from the “typical” ocean profile, since the surface waters off Cape Hatteras are more like 26-28 C, corresponding to a density below 1.023 kg/m^3. The difference between near-surface and 300 m depth is around 6.5 kg/m^3.

    Patrick Cyclonebuster (Comment#14975) June 21st, 2009 at 9:48 “…notice how the atmosphere pushes down on the water thus forcing the more heavy water up the tube, no need to pump it because Earths atmospheric pressure is the pump.”

    The atmosphere, along with the weight of the heavier water, is also pushing down on the column in the tube.

    Steve Geiger (Comment#14976) June 21st, 2009 at 11:19 pm
    “Patrick – your 6 mph is good for a whopping 1.2 feet of elevation potential…gonna be hard to get much out of that.”

    Bookkeeping of kinetic energy to potential energy conversion is (unfortunately) also not a very good way to model this flow, since it ignores the pressure effects in the surrounding fluid. Baines (1987) specifically discusses this KE-PE approach (which only coincidentally produces the correct order of magnitude criterion for blocking in a stratified flow over a bump).

  40. What are the densities at depth down near Miami and in the Yucatan current between the Yucatan of Mexico and Cuba? I have looked for this information but can’t find it.

  41. Patrick– Are you forgetting the % part in 0.05%? Remember that 0.05% = 0.0005. So, 0.002=0.2% and is a larger density difference. If the density difference is 0.2% over 500 m, your system cannot work at all.

  42. Steve,
    Of course. But it flows uphill in a geyser or artesian well because force is being applied to it- quite a bit of force. My simplistic question was designed to point out conceptually that, as you have pointed out empirically, there is not enough energy in Patrick’s system to do any useful work in his manifold.

  43. There is an ocean water density calculator here.

    http://www.phys.ocean.dal.ca/~kelley/seawater/density.html

    Density surface Gulf Stream (35 PSU, 27C, 0 decibar) = 1022.7 kg/m^3

    Density at 400M (35 PSU, 7C, 400 decibar) = 1029.2 kg/m^3

    Differential = 0.6%

    The increased pressure as you go lower down increases the density (slightly) as well. The ocean temperature rapidly approaches 1.5C as you go lower (1.5C with fairly high salt content seems to be the most dense ocean water and this is the temp./ saline profile of all the oceans at their greatest depths – even at 400M I think the temperature is below 7C in the Gulf Stream area.

  44. Bill,
    So, we get
    V∞2 = (1-ρave/ρentrance) { 2 g H }

    V∞2 = (0.003) * { 2 * 9.8 m/s2 400 m} ~24 (m/s)2

    v~4.9 m/s. This is quite a bit greater than 2.7 m/s. So, that would mean the 6 mph cannot induce flow (unless there is heat transfer, in which case, if the deep water has less salt than the surface water, we can create a salt pump. But that’s going to be really, really slow!)

  45. Patrick Cyclonebuster (Comment#14938) June 20th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
    A seamount, rising up out of the sea floor, has strong currents that frequently run over it, …

    If you want to propose a dam across the Gulf Stream, then say so. A dam will behave differently than your tilted straws.

    Patrick Cyclonebuster (Comment#14944) June 20th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
    They will also restore coral reefs to the natural prestine beauty and health to pre-industrial revolution conditions. World wide.

    1. Have you researched what conditions coral reefs require? Would reefs be restored by cold water?
    2. What were pre-industrial revolution conditions for coral reefs?
    3. Why would altering the Gulf Stream affect reefs world wide?

    Incidentally, why are you posting instead of testing in bathtub or boat?

  46. patrick C,
    Another point to understand is this: Venturis do not add energy to the system. They increase velocity at an expense of energy.

  47. It would work if you placed the tunnel outlet just below the red sugar water level in your straw example where the red sugar water almost reaches the surface through the oil.

  48. At that point both densities are equalized.

    Density surface Gulf Stream (35 PSU, 27C, 0 decibar) = 1022.7 kg/m^3

    Density at 400M (35 PSU, 7C, 400 decibar) = 1029.2 kg/m^3

  49. Explain what the h with the purple arrow means with vase? Top of the red fuild in the straw and the top of the oil? What does that difference represent?

  50. Patrick,
    Here’s the meaning of “h”.
    ” h, the elevation distance between the free surface of the oil and the free surface of the sugar water inside the straw, (shown to the right) is related to the density of the water and oil as:”

    In otherwords, it’s the distance between those to things. I’m not sure what you mean by “What does that difference represent?” It’s literally the physical distance between two levels not a representation of something else.

    It would work if you placed the tunnel outlet just below the red sugar water level in your straw example where the red sugar water almost reaches the surface through the oil.

    Sure. But with regard to your desire to pump cold dense water up to a region containing warmer low density fluid, how does this observation solve your problem?

  51. If cold water comes out the tunnel exit it is exiting in the horizontal flow of the warmer water closer to the surface that is outside the tunnel. This begins the mixing process of both cold and warm waters very near the surface. I’ll explain later the implications this will have on climate and hurriccanes, Arctic Ice and such .

  52. You see the height of the red sugar water in the straw? Place the tunnel exit just below that and the colder water flows out.

    The cold water will fall on top of and through the warmer water below it that is flowing outside the tunnel exit.

  53. I am going to the hardware store to get a few things for the tunnel test tomorrow. Video soon to be on Youtube.

  54. Patrick Cyclonebuster (Comment#14993) June 22nd, 2009 at 10:45 am
    You see the height of the red sugar water in the straw? Place the tunnel exit just below that and the colder water flows out.

    No, Lucia explained that won’t happen. Oil would flow in until it reaches the oil/water boundary. The water rises in the straw only because the weight of the oil is pushing it against atmospheric pressure. Read Lucia’s article carefully. Then try it in your kitchen.

    An ordinary straw is translucent enough to see a dark liquid, simply not sufficient for photography. If you really need a more translucent straw than your grocery store carries, try the Wallgreen’s toy section or a dollar store’s spray bottle (or their toy section). In North America, it’s silly straw and squirt gun seasons. Or clear tubing from a hardware or pet/aquarium store. (Is it obvious that I’ve had need to quickly build assorted devices?)

  55. Steve Geiger has kind of put the limits on this into place.
    I look forward to seeing what Patrick C puts up on youtube.
    Patrick C,
    Do you commit to putting your experiment up on youtube, no matter the results?

  57. If you have a hand mixer and a punch bowl, you could do this as a -dynamic- head test too.

  58. Need advice for rigging small tube in outlet to show speed of fluid????

  60. What’s the problem with the “small tube” that you need help with Patrick?
    .
    If you’re doing a pitot tube, you just need a small tube sticking -into- the outlet a tiny bit, and the other end sticking vertically well out of the water. That is, an “L” shaped tube, where the tube is small compared to the size of your model (think: straw or two taped together).
    .
    You can put ruler marks on the straw, or you can try to figure out the displacement from pictures after the fact.
    .
    It might be helpful to have more than just one of these small tubes. Having one near the apparatus inlet, for example, gives a confirmation of the bulk flowrate.

  61. Can’t find a rigid one. The flexable one keeps bending. Will try a more rigid tube.

  62. Will be posting video of tunnel tonight on youtube! It is pretty short and sweet.

  66. Is the red dye going to flow out the tunnel tomorrow? What do you guys/gals think yes or no?

  69. Alan S. Blue,
    At (6/650=0.009) mph, no.
    I am not following you. Explain?

  70. Patrick–
    I don’t know if the red die will flow through. The purpose is to estimate the loss coefficients; the red die and the straw will help us discover this.

    The density difference issue in this post is a separate issue, but both can reduce the flow.

  71. I am betting yes anyone else betting yes? Please explain yes and no answers.

  72. The reason I am betting yes is because I am sure the dye is going to flow to an area of lower pressure inside the tunnel. I am going to test both inlet elevations.

  73. I’ve tried for several days now. I apparently can’t explain sufficiently.
    .
    At 6mph, you should have enough energy for there to be at least some flow through this scale model.
    .
    I don’t think “6 mph” is the correct test speed though. There are two separate issues. One involves the work of lifting the denser cold water. The other involves pipe friction effects.
    .
    The lifting issue is a function strictly of the bulk flowrate, the density at the top and the bottom, and the height. This entire post focuses on calculating the minimum velocity for an infinitesimal flow. You’ve reduced the height by a factor of 650, and left the bulk flowrate identical. For this test, the lifting issue should be moot since the flowrate is much greater than the minimum velocity for an infinitesimal flow. (This was my main objection throughout.)
    .
    The pipe friction issue is usually dealt with by matching Reynolds Numbers. The Wikipedia page has an adequate description, see especially the section on “The Similarity of Flows” which discusses using a scale model. The page on “Dynamic_similitude” has an example of scaling a submarine.

  74. I don’t get it! Upwelling occurs when a current encounters sea mounts. These tunnels are better than sea mounts because the energy is conserved within the tunnels unlike it is with sea mounts the energy is all over the place. So how is it we get upwelling at sea mounts but not in the tunnels? That part of it makes no sense to me at all.

  75. Patrick–
    What’s the geometry of a seamount? Is it like the very long chain of mountains running north south on the western side of our continent? Or like a tunnel?

    In a long chain or mountains, there is no way for the wind to travel far enough north or south to get around the mountain, so it goes around. The same holds for water.

    I think some flow will go through the tunnels. But how much depends on the geometry.

  77. Lucia,
    Another question for you? What if you inserted another tube inside the tube with the red water? You could pump from it if it is less than 30 feet from the surface. Correct?

  78. Patrick– I think only some will flow through. The reason is I think the loss coefficients will be moderate through a shortish tube.

    You could pump from it if it is less than 30 feet from the surface. Correct?

    Maybe. That’s what I want to find out.

    BTW: Is there a venturi inside your mockup?

  79. I plan on doing that but not for tomorrows test. I have to machine one down to the the correct size and make it a tight fit. How far should I neck it down to get the most out of it?

  80. Maybe. That’s what I want to find out.

    Lots of energy saved.

  81. lucia (Comment#15041)
    June 22nd, 2009 at 8:05 pm

    Patrick– I think only some will flow through. The reason is I think the loss coefficients will be moderate through a shortish tube.

    You could pump from it if it is less than 30 feet from the surface. Correct?

    Maybe. That’s what I want to find out.

    BTW: Is there a venturi inside your mockup?

    Can you Siphon it out from there??

  82. lucia — the result depends quite a bit on the exact (3-d) configuration of the seamount and the Froude number, and also whether the flow is periodic or reaches steady state.

  83. Oliver– I agree it depends on those things.
    I assumed Patrick was referring to a steady state flow so I focused on geometry. (I’m not very familiar with the specific flow.)

  84. How far should I neck the venturi down to get the most out of it? I was thinking of making the area of the narrow section 4 times less than the area of the opening or can I go smaller to increase velocity?

  85. Patrick–
    No one here as enough information to determine the optimum throat area for your venturi. For now, test what you have and let us see the results.

    The amount of flow reduction due to the venturi will depend on the area ratio for your venturi and how you design it. But the engineering for that decision can’t be done in a blog post. The question here is just to see if the system can work at all.

    It may be that it won’t because of the density issue.

  86. Patrick Cyclonebuster (Comment#15035) June 22nd, 2009 at 7:22 pm
    I don’t get it! Upwelling occurs when a current encounters sea mounts.

    A seamount is merely an underwater mountain. When a current hits a mountain, it is like hitting a dam. Pressure increases and some water will flow around and some will flow higher than it otherwise would. But it is not guaranteed that there will be flow over the top as that is dependent upon the pressure and altitude involved (also upwelling is not necessarily beneficial for life, but biologists are more likely to report where life is present than where it is absent). Indeed, underwater flows also scour channels into the sea bottom and most of the water may end up going deeper to get around the obstacle.

    But you’re not proposing underwater dams, merely a tube which the current can easily flow around. If the tube is the diameter of a mountain, or is mounted in a dam the size of a mountain, then you can expect similar pressure changes.

    Also, the force from the pressure behind a dam is not unlimited. If you put a six-foot-tall dam across a three-foot-deep stream, you’re not going to get enough pressure to lift water 100 feet into the air (unless you use a hydraulic ram or other pump which extracts energy from most of the water flow to lift a little of the water). And flowing into a material of reduced density will not lift a denser liquid; if that were so then a brook which encountered a mountain would flow up the mountain and up into space (continually encountering air of decreasing density).

  87. Nope I need that information today so I can build it tonight when I get back from the test today!.

  88. I will also be doing some bass fishing after the test. If I catch any I will post them here too if that is ok??? No beer though sadly! It’s hard to steer when having a beer.

  89. Patrick,
    You’re the one proposing a design. No one can tell you what is “best”. Most people here think there is no “best” because your system won’t work.

    But, if you had previously planned a particular neck down area, why not use that?

  90. I saw the video of the model. There was no mention of a venturi or other pressure effects which might help the difficult flow. Also no mention of tank or bathtub testing of the device nor the dye.

    Because of the intended depth, the likely point of view from a boat, sun angles, and the turbidity of most water, there will be difficulties in photographing the tests. There was no mention of the mounting system, underwater lighting, nor underwater cameras, so the likely viewpoint will be photographing straight down on something being held next to the boat, while feeding an unknown dye into what must be extraordinarily clear water.

    Incidentally, if you’re going to such a clear body of water, have you checked if there are drinking water reservoir restrictions on water in that region, and that your dye is nontoxic?

  92. Food coloring is non-toxic. I guess if I did this for a lab, I’d get an MSDS sheet. Lab safety seems to want that for everything. I think I once got an MSDS sheet for sugar.

  93. If you can just measure the flowrate well upstream of the inlet and -in- the outlet of the bare tube, we’ll have some numbers to fiddle with.
    .
    An L-shaped straw with the horizontal piece aimed directly into the flow and the top -well- above the surface of the water will do as a rough flowmeter. Just measure how high the water rises above the surface as accurately as you can.

  96. I am going to download the video on Youtube.Hopefully, you can see the results.
    There was no way we could do the experiment at 6 mph. It was all we could do to hold the tube in the water at the 20 inch mark. Once we back off the throttle the water settled back down to about the 2 inch mark on pitot tube.I estimate we were only going around 2 miles per hour. We did get red die to come out of the tunnel exit. We tested the top and bottom inlets seperatly and we saw the red die exiting the tunnel.

  97. Wow! Youtube is slow tonight. It says about 20 mins. left to load.

  99. You won’t be able to sleep tonight if you don’t look! I know I couldn’t.

  100. 6 mins left. I have aready seen the videos on my olympus program. You can see it better on the bottom pipe than the top one go figure.

  102. 13 min left to load bottom inlet test with the top capped off. This one is much more clear.

  104. I see that I was correct that there would be difficulty photographing with this setup.

    I can’t see much, much less any dye. I suspect that someone who cares more could enhance the image to show the dye. I hadn’t expected presentation of a test run with such excessive tilting of the assembly.

    I do see that I erred in one way. After seeing the test device, I overlooked that the vertical supports are of sufficiently large diameter that they’re creating a wake over the horizontal tube. Is the resulting pressure difference at the exit significant?

    The tubes being next to the boat might be making the flow and pressure be different than in a steady stream due to flow around the boat. What was the position of the equipment compared to the bow wave part of the wake?

    How was the speed calculated? I’m curious how it differed from the 150 mile per hour crossing of the English Channel by a “Top Gear” vessel.

  105. The bottom test was the most succesfull today with the dye exiting the outlet. I didn’t think it would work at 2 mph! Now I am believing it will work at any speed as long at it is moving you will get flow.

  107. Next test will be venturi sizing and placement and food color testing again.

  109. Patrick– No advice on the venturi! You are the one designing your system. I’m going to watch the video now.

  111. Patrick–
    It looks like you had fun! (The red-red wine song is funny.)

    Ok. So, right now, the loss coefficients seem to be the minor issue. (Unless they become large with the venturi.)

    It looks like there is no straw, so we can’t tell the velocity to estimate the minor losses further. After the venturi, we need to concentrate in the density issue. (The river test doesn’t capture that issue because there is no appreciable density gradient in the river.)

  112. I will be doing another test today in a creek I found that is pretty clear.

  113. We were holding the two 1 inch pvc pipes to submerge it the 20 inches. We saw a two inch rise on the pitot tube that we attached to it. You can see the Tygon tubeing attached to the 1 inch pipe with black electrical tape.

  114. I am beginning to think that the more dense water at depth will just push the less dense water away at the surface as it mixes after it comes out.

  115. It mixes pretty quick on the video. After about 3 feet from the exit you can’t see the die anymore.

  116. You can see the Tygon tubeing attached to the 1 inch pipe with black electrical tape on the first video of the day for the top inlet test.

  117. I am making the venturi and installing it near the tunnel exit. The I.D. of it will be 1 5/16 inches necked down from 2 inches. You will see it tonight during the next test.

  118. What speed where you moving at when you saw the 2″ rise in the pitot tube?

    I am beginning to think that the more dense water at depth will just push the less dense water away at the surface as it mixes after it comes out.

    This will only happen if the density gradient is not too large. You aren’t going to convince anyone otherwise unless you do the numbers comparing the density change outside the pipe to the velocity at the entrance. This isn’t a controversial thing. There is a minimum external velocity associated with each and every external density profile. You need to show the gulf stream exceeds that velocity using the density profile in the gulf stream.

  119. The cold dense fluid pushes the warm less dense fluid out of the way of the tunnel exit.

  120. Turn the entrance into the flow. It will flow out the top above sea level.

  121. The cold dense fluid pushes the warm less dense fluid out of the way of the tunnel exit.

    Only if the velocity is sufficient to permit this. Look at the straw above. The cold dense fluid will not flow up and out of the straw.

  124. Turn the entrance into the flow. It will flow out the top above sea level.

    Does your test stream run uphill?

  125. Patrick C,
    It will flow out the top, but with very little useful energy.
    Water only does work when forced to. Water seeks its own level. Water only goes uphill to the extent an outside force shoves it uphill.

  126. Scooter (Comment#15168)
    June 24th, 2009 at 2:22 pm

    Turn the entrance into the flow. It will flow out the top above sea level.

    Does your test stream run uphill?

  127. Venturi tunnel test is complete. I estimated the flow across the tunnel to be less than 1/2 mile per hour. Again the non-toxic red food coloring flowed through top when the bottom was capped and through bottom when the top was capped. I was able to get the best pictures yet of the red dye coming out the outlet . At such a low velocity there was very little turbulance in the water. It seem to be flowing 6 inces per second yet it still went uphill and against gravity.New videos will be coming shortly.

  129. I estimated the flow across the tunnel to be less than 1/2 mile per hour. Again the non-toxic red food coloring flowed through top when the bottom was capped and through bottom when the top was capped.

    Was this the velocity of your boat? Or of the flow inside the tunnel?

  130. We were anchored to a tree. and the current in this stream was flowing about 1/4 mph if that!

  132. If you don’t want to do a pitot tube measurement, you can use an empty bag to estimate all of the flows. The bulk flow, flow through the bare pipe, flow through the lower pipe, and flow through either with the venturi section.
    .
    There’s a type of garbage bag called a ‘contractor bag’ that is for construction debris and is quite thick. Or perhaps some of the 2-gallon or larger ziplocks.

  133. You can tell pretty good by how fast the foam is moving past the pipe on the surface. To me it looked about 6 inhces per second how about you?

  137. While watching a hurricane flow across the Gulf, it occurred to me that there is a large problem with the cyclonebusting notion. If it works.

    What makes England’s winters milder than Portland (Oregon) is the warm humid air which flows out of the Gulf of Mexico and across the eastern U.S. on its way to England. Chilling surface waters would alter that behavior. The eastern seaboard would chill, and England would freeze. Make that two large problems.

    Some will argue that it’s the warm Gulf Stream which warms England. That is questionable, but the same people would prefer that the surface water stay warm until England, and would prefer that the warm water sink as far north as possible so their thermohaline circulation can do whatever it is doing. For them there’s at least one large problem in chilling the water.

    Also, me and others have suggested pumping air down and using that to mix the waters. We were in error, because we forgot the goal. Air might stir the waters and transfer heat (er… cold) from deep to shallow waters, but the goal is to reduce thunderstorms. Releasing a lot of humid air into the atmosphere is the wrong way to reduce thunderstorms.

  138. We are making it to hot now correct? So we need to change it back correct?

  139. When you’re posting videos, also in the text describe what you’re doing and why, describe what you might have done wrong, and what your results are.

    At least in one of the videos I could see some red, and some reasons why the red might be irrelevant. But I don’t know what you thought you were doing or why, and I might have misunderstood something.

  140. Yesterday I had flow without the venturi. Today I installed the venturi on the exit to show flow would still come out even with more equipment being added causing more friction.

  142. Also the red food coloring sinks pretty fast in the water when dropped in it making the water more dense when mixed yet it also rises in such a low velocity current. Next experiment will be in salted red die.

  143. Patric

    Why does the water flow upward against gravity?

    In the river, where there are no density gradients, gravity is offset by the change in pressure. So there are effectively no gravitational effects.

    But that’s different from the gulfstream where the cold water is denser than the warm water.

    I need to go through this to find if you have any of the pitot tube measurements and make a little table.

    For each tests I need to figure out

    Height of water in pitot tube away from boat = ____ inches.
    Height of water in pitot tube when placed at exit = ____ inches.

    Those numbers will let me estimate the frictional losses. (The second number can never be larger than the first. If it is, your boat speed varied!)

    Do you have those? Can you put them in one place? They seem spread over 100 comments, and it’s hard for me to find them?

    Still, I think the frictional losses are not so high, since you did get flow.

    (By the way, the pulses of die coming out of one of the test looked fun. Were you wiggling the pipe though? Or was that wiggling itself?)

  144. I had my son move it back and fourth to show it was coning from the pipe exit and not from around it. If you can look at the bubbles going by they seem to be traveling about 6 inches per second. This was a very slow current.

  145. Height of water in pitot tube away from boat = _2.0___ inches.
    Height of water in pitot tube when placed at exit = __2.0__ inches.

    I had two inches on each side when the die was added. If the back one was lower I couldn’t tell the difference.

  146. On the back side of the tunnel outlet where the die comes out. How much of a pressure drop is created in a 6 mph current?

  147. You still haven’t described what you were doing and why. There are several things on the video which can affect the results. If we start listing things then we might get replies to only those items, and not be aware of some things which we didn’t notice or which were not on the camera. Just describe everything.

  148. You still haven’t described what you were doing and why.

    Building the tunnels to regualte the cliamte since we are warming the planet to much.

  149. “You still haven’t described what you were doing and why.”

    Building the tunnels to regualte the climate since we are warming the planet to much. I had to figure a way to reverse the warming and to restore the Arctic ice as well as the glaciers and many many other bad effects we are causing climate wise.

  150. Patrick, I meant describe every detail of your experiments, why you do each thing, and what the results are. For example – are the two vertical support tubes hollow and connected to the horizontal tube so water can flow into them, and if so then why and what was observed? Is there slipstreaming around the two vertical support tubes or does water encounter a round cylinder, and what was observed around the vertical supports?

  151. Patrick, I meant describe every detail of your experiments, why you do each thing, and what the results are. For example – are the two vertical support tubes hollow and connected to the horizontal tube so water can flow into them, and if so then why and what was observed? Is there slipstreaming around the two vertical support tubes or does water encounter a round cylinder, and what was observed around the vertical supports?

    Those are just support tubes so I can hold the tunnel against the current. I wasn’t worried about any turbulance they made. I was wanting to see what would happen if I submerged the tunnel.

  152. specific weight of water is 62.4 (lb/ft3)
    Heads at different velocities are indicated in the table below:

    http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/static-pressure-head-d_610.html

    6mph=8.8 ft/sec = gulfstream flow. That gives me about 1.2 feet of head on the front of the tunnel entrance on top of what the head pressure already is over an area of 40,000 square feet.

    What pressure difference does the 6 mph gulfstream current give me on the back side of the tunnel? Would it give me 1.2 feet of head minus what the head pressure already is at the outlet?

  153. Would it give me 1.2 feet of head less than what the head pressure already is at the outlet?

  155. Patrick–

    What’s wrong cat got your tongues today?

    I walked to the grocery store and back. Didn’t see your comment instantly. 🙂

    If the two pitot-tube heights were equal, you detected zero head loss across the system. So, frictional losses were too small to measure.

    That only leaves the density difference issue for a pipe with no turbine in it.

    But the density difference issue looks important for the Gulf stream.. I’m not sure I’ve managed to get you to understand that part.

    Is there someone down at the plant in Anniston has specifically taught pipe flow somewhere like University of Alabama? We need to get you to understand this issue so you could go through density, depth curves to figure out where or how this thing could be used in the gulf stream.

  157. “We need to get you to understand this issue so you could go through density, depth curves to figure out where or how this thing could be used in the gulf stream.'”

    I already have figured out about four locations for use in deep Western boundry currents. The Yucatan current, the Gulfstream in two locations, one down near Key West and off of St. Lucie inlet.

    In Pacific Ocean it can be used in the Kuroshio current off of Taiwan.

    http://www.serd.ait.ac.th/reric/EENews/Taiwan_Kuroshio.gif

  158. Patrick–
    We looked up densities in the gulf stream. It looks like it won’t work over the elevation changes you suggested. It does look like the frictional losses may not matter so much, but the doesn’t fix the other issue. I don’t know what Hugh or Frank’s opinion on this particular issue is.

    If you think it’s going to work, fine. But I think you can’t overcome the density issue. I wish you good luck, but I guess if Hugh and Frank are interested, they can help you find funding or help you figure out whether this can work with the density differences off the coast of Taiwan.

  159. Patrick: You need to describe everything. I saw several things which can affect your experiment, but it is best if you describe all the details so your observations are not affected by our comments. Merely answering things which are pointed out is only partial information.

  162. Lucia,
    I dought Hugh would have worked out 20,000 tunnels at a cost of 20 billion if he thought the pressure differentail wasn’t great enough to overcome the density. Perhaps, he didn’t go as deep and tapped into 60 degree water instead.

  166. Patrick: I already told you why we shouldn’t ask until you describe your experiment. But this doesn’t look like a scientific experiment, so messing it up further won’t matter much.

    I can’t see much in the two lake videos, other than there is something in the water. What is apparent is that the exit is in the wake of the vertical supports, which might reduce the pressure at the exit. And the location of the device next to the boat might place boat-generated waves across the device.

    In one of the videos the vertical supports seem to be at a 45 degree angle, implying that the conduit to the bottom intake is much less vertical than it should be. Why was that done?

    In the video in the stream, it looks as if the top intake has a cap on it. There are bubbles near the front of the device, probably from the dye pump, and bubbles then coming out of the exhaust — I didn’t see bubble-assisted pumping as part of the device’s design.

    You didn’t describe your dye pumping method and rate. Pumping 55 gallons a minute into an opening would tend to cause flow rather than only mark flow. Injecting 1 mm/second of dye won’t much affect flow through a pipe of several inches diameter. Using the equivalent of a dissolving popsicle won’t really involve pumping. The tubing fastened to a rod implies that you used a pump in the boat.

    When showing dye coming out of the back end, it looks like you’re moving the back end and not the front end — moving water horizontally across an opening creates a pressure differential so that you’re pumping the liquid out of the tube (try it with a straw). [Five minute delay while I confirm my memory. Yup.]
    * Fill large sink with water.
    * Fill prescription bottle (no cap) with colored liquid (red KoolAid). Yeah, it’s called a prescription bottle but looks more like a plastic cylinder.
    * Immerse straw at an angle, shake to remove bubbles. Bubbles could block the tube or cause unwanted priming of motion.
    * Hold straw horizontally under water so it doesn’t again get air in it.
    * Immerse upright prescription bottle slowly near one end of straw. Hold straw near that end.
    * Let water slowly finish filling bottle, avoiding turbulence.
    * Lower bottle below level of straw, position end of straw over center of bottle opening.
    * Rotate bottom of bottle up, away from straw.
    * Put end of straw within bottle. The straw is now in or surrounded by colored water, which is leaking out around the opening.
    * Rotate fingers holding straw such that the long end of straw follows an arc through the water. The small end of the straw wriggles much less through the colored water.
    * Try different speeds of rotation (and thus speed of the sweep through the water).
    * Observe colored water pulsing from long end of straw during faster sweeps.

    OK, that turned into a minor example of the description of an experiment.

    I don’t know what others saw. This is just what I remember from two viewings many hours ago. And this article is about to scroll away. Bye.

  167. A reminder that there are questions which a scale model won’t resolve without careful design of the experiment. Several people have pointed out various issues.

    Also study fluid flows (science and engineering), oceanography, civil engineering, meteorology, climate science. And as you’re interested in coral reefs, dip into marine biology, fishing, the freshwater lens, and sewage processing.

    Sometimes it’s not enough to know the definition of an expert. Sometimes one has to understand the definition of an expert.

  169. Why would the food coloring additive flow up hill scooter it is more dense than the outside water?

  170. Patrick-
    Why do you think water with food coloring added is more noticeably more dense than the outside water?

  172. So tell me how does it flow out the top if it is more dense in a 1/4 mph current?

  173. Patrick– Mix it up. Does it sink to the bottom now?

    In your set up, the food coloring must mix rather quickly with the surrounding water. Since it’s food coloring, it’s still dark.

    To answer your question in 15376, we need to know a) the actual specific gravity of the ink and b) what fraction of the pipe area is occupied by mixed up food coloring. Basically, we need to know the average weight of fluid in the pipe. We don’t know this from your experiment. (I didn’t intend to know it.)

  174. I am pretty sure Hugh and Frank calculated that since I asked them specifically about the density.

  175. Patrick-
    If your source for believing the velocity can over come the density gradient is Hugh and Frank, to convince others, you need to get Hugh and Frank to explain their reasoning. Or, you need to be able to explain precisely waht they told you.

  176. “Patrick– Mix it up. Does it sink to the bottom now?

    In your set up, the food coloring must mix rather quickly with the surrounding water. Since it’s food coloring, it’s still dark. ”

    Doesn’t matter it still makes the overall density of that water more dense.

  177. Lucia, did you forget to pick up a straws like you planned to post the picture with the shorter straw?

  179. It won’t matter force 1 at lower tunnel inlet is still greater than force 2 at upper tunnel outlet. It will still flow.

    Here is why. In your straw example the red fluid went up the staw to almost to the top level of the oil. That space between the two is the difference in their weight. All you have to do to make it flow, is place the exit of the tunnel below the level of where the red fluid rose to. The red fluid wants to rise there anyways as in your example. I will bet you one “Whopper” one “Large Fry” and a large “Chocolate Milk Shake” from “Burger King”.

  180. Patrick – lucia and I explained above why cutting the straw won’t do what you think it will. Incidentally, learn about capillary action before interpreting the results from your short straw.

    lucia – bon apetit.

  181. Scooter (Comment#15428)
    June 28th, 2009 at 7:21 pm

    Patrick – lucia and I explained above why cutting the straw won’t do what you think it will. Incidentally, learn about capillary action before interpreting the results from your short straw.

    lucia – bon apetit.

    Scooter,
    If you think Capillary Action is the force that did that think again! The inside diameter must be much much much smaller than that.

  182. Patrick: No, I did not say that capillary action had done much in any straw yet. I reminded you to consider it when trying to interpret the results of your proposed straw-cutting experiment. I know the levels will be pretty close inside and outside the straws, but the level inside the straw might be a little higher due to the effects of being inside a straw.

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